Prawn Nerf

MasterTrader · Sun Aug 28, 2016 5:46 am

Zeuss wrote:

MasterTrader wrote:

I don't actually have a problem with the DPS you can do in a Prawn tbh. The Prawn tends to be nuts because people who want to invest in a Sniper have invested in the Prawn and have tons of mods and expensive augs. If they were to take those augs and mods and the time they spent on it into another ship they would do a relative amount of damage (I think me and DS worked out the Delquadrikamdon that I did as somewhere between 70%-80% of a Prawn), but they wouldn't have as much range.

I honestly don't think doing a ton of DPS is a problem, and I don't think the development team as a whole has a problem with players doing a lot of DPS. The problem is that the DPS augs most favored tend to come with a very hefty amount of range, 3 aug heavy fighters already have a considerable amount of range. When the Prawn gets to throw another augmenter in there, players will generally put another one of those DPS augs on it. And, lo and behold, those high DPS augs tend to have a decent amount of range on them.

Range actually does affect DPS, albeit indirectly, when it comes to DPS uptime. Tracking has the same effect. You all know that your DPS doesn't mean anything if your weapons aren't hitting the target, that's why seasoned players tend to use weapons that have good range and tracking (Or compensate by augging for it).

TL;DR: I think nerfing the range on the Prawn pushes the Prawn away from an all purpose ship and towards a heavy weapons platform, meaning that you pick the Prawn to do as much damage as you can to anything that gets close enough to you. This leaves room for ships and setups that want to take advantage of more range and (maybe) more tracking, especially when a player doesn't care about cranking out the highest DPS they can do at that tier. That really matters against more nimble/speedy targets.

Didn't we all agree that the amount of DPS you need to do currently to kill anything is stupid and that the MF meta needed to be changed? And weren't you in favour of rebalancing Olympus, Subspace and PPS to have less shields and be more interesting than to sit still for an hour holding down space bar.

Seriously, the DPS a prawn sniper does regardless of the cost invested in it is ridiculous for this game and it's annoying that content is being balanced around that.

Also, the fuck is a range nerf going to do? Engineers still carry tractors.

A large part of that massive amount of DPS stems from the Prawn having access to 4 augmenters and being able to effectively use Hydra gear.

I was wrong when it came to The Olympus and The Serengeti, they are more than doable in a reasonable amount of time without a Prawn. Subspace and PPS are zones that were balanced around the Prawn, and those are the jurisdiction of Dev's more knowledgeable than me.

The problem with talking about the DPS a Sniper Prawn does is that we've gotta make sure we're all talking about the same thing. Because a Prawn without 4 top tier expensive augmenters, modded gear, an engineer and a shield monkey or two isn't able to do anywhere near what a Prawn with all of those things. And, believe it or not, you can do similar things in a 3 augmenter ship. You'll just have less range/rate of fire/damage or any combination out of the three.

If you were to take everything you do with a Prawn and you replicated it on a 3 augmenter ship, its going to approach the Prawn. But it won't do it anywhere near as good as the Prawn, because it will have less range less damage less rate of fire less electricity.

The stats that matter for DPS aren't resistances, otherwise no one would use a Prawn. Compare the Prawn to like, a Poseidon Wave. The extra augmenter makes the Prawn flat out better. If it wasn't better all the min-maxers wouldn't use it!

Having 4 augmenter slots should make you better, but you need a trade off that you can't easily get around in order to allow that to be the case. Light fighters have really gimped hull, and most high powered gear is large, so that balances them having higher DPS potential. The Prawn doesn't have ANYTHING you can't easily get around as a drawback for its 4 augmenter slots. In fact, everything it has either directly enables it to do higher potential DPS or minorly affects its ability to do that DPS.

All of these things combine to make it so that any change that gets made needs to be carefully targetted so that we don't remove the Prawn's niche (damage) while still allowing other ships to be powerful in their own right.

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MasterTrader Contributor Team: Rank: Soldier Main: Hober Mallow Level: 4888 Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 3:08 pm Posts: 3191	Re: Prawn Nerf Zeuss wrote: MasterTrader wrote: I don't actually have a problem with the DPS you can do in a Prawn tbh. The Prawn tends to be nuts because people who want to invest in a Sniper have invested in the Prawn and have tons of mods and expensive augs. If they were to take those augs and mods and the time they spent on it into another ship they would do a relative amount of damage (I think me and DS worked out the Delquadrikamdon that I did as somewhere between 70%-80% of a Prawn), but they wouldn't have as much range. I honestly don't think doing a ton of DPS is a problem, and I don't think the development team as a whole has a problem with players doing a lot of DPS. The problem is that the DPS augs most favored tend to come with a very hefty amount of range, 3 aug heavy fighters already have a considerable amount of range. When the Prawn gets to throw another augmenter in there, players will generally put another one of those DPS augs on it. And, lo and behold, those high DPS augs tend to have a decent amount of range on them. Range actually does affect DPS, albeit indirectly, when it comes to DPS uptime. Tracking has the same effect. You all know that your DPS doesn't mean anything if your weapons aren't hitting the target, that's why seasoned players tend to use weapons that have good range and tracking (Or compensate by augging for it). TL;DR: I think nerfing the range on the Prawn pushes the Prawn away from an all purpose ship and towards a heavy weapons platform, meaning that you pick the Prawn to do as much damage as you can to anything that gets close enough to you. This leaves room for ships and setups that want to take advantage of more range and (maybe) more tracking, especially when a player doesn't care about cranking out the highest DPS they can do at that tier. That really matters against more nimble/speedy targets. Didn't we all agree that the amount of DPS you need to do currently to kill anything is stupid and that the MF meta needed to be changed? And weren't you in favour of rebalancing Olympus, Subspace and PPS to have less shields and be more interesting than to sit still for an hour holding down space bar. Seriously, the DPS a prawn sniper does regardless of the cost invested in it is ridiculous for this game and it's annoying that content is being balanced around that. Also, the fuck is a range nerf going to do? Engineers still carry tractors. A large part of that massive amount of DPS stems from the Prawn having access to 4 augmenters and being able to effectively use Hydra gear. I was wrong when it came to The Olympus and The Serengeti, they are more than doable in a reasonable amount of time without a Prawn. Subspace and PPS are zones that were balanced around the Prawn, and those are the jurisdiction of Dev's more knowledgeable than me. The problem with talking about the DPS a Sniper Prawn does is that we've gotta make sure we're all talking about the same thing. Because a Prawn without 4 top tier expensive augmenters, modded gear, an engineer and a shield monkey or two isn't able to do anywhere near what a Prawn with all of those things. And, believe it or not, you can do similar things in a 3 augmenter ship. You'll just have less range/rate of fire/damage or any combination out of the three. If you were to take everything you do with a Prawn and you replicated it on a 3 augmenter ship, its going to approach the Prawn. But it won't do it anywhere near as good as the Prawn, because it will have less range less damage less rate of fire less electricity. The stats that matter for DPS aren't resistances, otherwise no one would use a Prawn. Compare the Prawn to like, a Poseidon Wave. The extra augmenter makes the Prawn flat out better. If it wasn't better all the min-maxers wouldn't use it! Having 4 augmenter slots should make you better, but you need a trade off that you can't easily get around in order to allow that to be the case. Light fighters have really gimped hull, and most high powered gear is large, so that balances them having higher DPS potential. The Prawn doesn't have ANYTHING you can't easily get around as a drawback for its 4 augmenter slots. In fact, everything it has either directly enables it to do higher potential DPS or minorly affects its ability to do that DPS. All of these things combine to make it so that any change that gets made needs to be carefully targetted so that we don't remove the Prawn's niche (damage) while still allowing other ships to be powerful in their own right. _________________ http://www.starsonata.com/suggestions Last edited by MasterTrader on Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
Sun Aug 28, 2016 12:25 am

redalert150 Team: Rank: Councilor Main: 1-800-USE_THE_FORCE! Level: 9597 Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2005 6:36 pm Posts: 2769	Re: Prawn Nerf Well with 4 augs you arent going to do much to its dps, surviability is a great trade off for dps. The problem i have with prawn is that not only can it do stupid dps but it can also survive pretty well. If it were given even less resist i would think it would be a way more balanced ship, would fit the roll well of glass cannon. Could still use its range to advantage against targets but once you close that gap the other ships percentage of winning against prawn need to sky rocket. Currently thats sort of how Prawn works and i think its great but its just not squishy enough. A resist nerf should make it pretty balanced in my opinion. A range nerf seems really silly specially 50%, have you guys thought what that would do to zerk prawns that have minimal range as it is anyways? _________________ "I still miss the Crack Whores..." - Jeff_L
Sun Aug 28, 2016 12:51 am

Tomzta09 Team: Rank: Peon Main: Mow Level: 9760 Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 2:57 pm Posts: 4731 Location: Kuratovo, Russia	Re: Prawn Nerf So we aren't losing the 4th aug slot. This range Nerf is completely fine but it doesn't stop an FC with Commander's Ascension. Although I'd also be in favour of dropping the resistances down to 20% so it pretty much is a T21 Shrimp. That way if you want to use this thing, you need to put a lot of effort in keeping it alive. And I find myself agreeing with the majority on this topic. Whilst you're at it, Nerf the Nightfury's Anger as well. You don't get to just Nerf the range for the little people while the endgamers get off relatively unscathed. _________________
Sun Aug 28, 2016 5:46 am

anilv over 9000! Main: enkelin Level: 5600 Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2007 12:28 pm Posts: 11109	Re: Prawn Nerf I'm OK with looking at removing the 4th aug slot in exchange for some other rebalancing of stats, if people are interested in that option. The dev team entered this discussion with some assumptions about what the players would be OK with, but it seems that the majority of folks are open to a lot more than we had expected. _________________ Hi, I'm Anil, a long-time player turned developer. I am Star Sonata's lead content developer, which means that I run weekly dev meetings and make sure that any proposed changes to the game receive proper review before going live. http://www.starsonata.com/features
Sun Aug 28, 2016 11:04 am

the white wizard Team: Rank: Peon Main: The White Wizard Level: 4276 Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:28 am Posts: 252	Re: Prawn Nerf Well, the only thing that's going to suffer with this prawn nerf is my prawn fc, that if you nerf the resistances or remove an aug slot which doesn't matter anyway because there are no augs that improve aura effectiveness. _________________
Sun Aug 28, 2016 12:13 pm

The Voomy One Team: Rank: Councilor Main: The Voomy One Level: 1337 Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 12:06 am Posts: 4137	Re: Prawn Nerf The Prawn did originally have 3 aug slots but was changed after the first couple of players got their hands on it and felt it was much too weak. Wasnt too bad at first but with all the augs and stuff that has been added to the game it really got totally out of hand. Going back to 3 aug slots would probably be the best way to balance it.
Mon Aug 29, 2016 1:21 am

Pontius123 Main: The Shaft of Discipline Level: 3680 Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 6:45 pm Posts: 1082	Re: Prawn Nerf Can we make the Shrimp 3 augs too like this proposed 3 aug Prawn? _________________ Reddit Space Invaders!
Mon Aug 29, 2016 2:31 am

the white wizard Team: Rank: Peon Main: The White Wizard Level: 4276 Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:28 am Posts: 252	Re: Prawn Nerf The Voomy One wrote: The Prawn did originally have 3 aug slots but was changed after the first couple of players got their hands on it and felt it was much too weak. Wasnt too bad at first but with all the augs and stuff that has been added to the game it really got totally out of hand. Going back to 3 aug slots would probably be the best way to balance it. Yes. Reducing the aug slots on prawn to 3 would fix many balancing issues. Pontius123 wrote: Can we make the Shrimp 3 augs too like this proposed 3 aug Prawn? No _________________
Mon Aug 29, 2016 6:15 am

anilv over 9000! Main: enkelin Level: 5600 Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2007 12:28 pm Posts: 11109	Re: Prawn Nerf OK, what kind of augmods would you all like to see in exchange for the 4th aug slot? Let's focus on the type rather than the exact numbers. Keep in mind that the Wattage already has Energy/Damage/Elec Temp on lock. I'm not quite sure how to assess the Delquad since Hober's change so maybe he can weigh in. _________________ Hi, I'm Anil, a long-time player turned developer. I am Star Sonata's lead content developer, which means that I run weekly dev meetings and make sure that any proposed changes to the game receive proper review before going live. http://www.starsonata.com/features
Mon Aug 29, 2016 6:42 am

Tomzta09 Team: Rank: Peon Main: Mow Level: 9760 Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 2:57 pm Posts: 4731 Location: Kuratovo, Russia	Re: Prawn Nerf The Voomy One wrote: The Prawn did originally have 3 aug slots but was changed after the first couple of players got their hands on it and felt it was much too weak. Wasnt too bad at first but with all the augs and stuff that has been added to the game it really got totally out of hand. Going back to 3 aug slots would probably be the best way to balance it. It'd be best to unequip all 4 Augmenters if the slot is removed. _________________
Mon Aug 29, 2016 7:21 am

Antilzah Team: Rank: Officer Main: Blizzara Level: 6660 Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2007 4:25 pm Posts: 1974 Location: Finland	Re: Prawn Nerf Pseudo CaL. That would be an indirect nerf to range. Slap some inbuilt -range on top of that as well seeing it was the original intent after all.
Mon Aug 29, 2016 8:17 am

DarkSteel Contributor Team: Rank: Main: Dark Steel Level: 9138 Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2006 10:35 am Posts: 2068 Location: Netherlands	Re: Prawn Nerf Antilzah wrote: Pseudo CaL. That would be an indirect nerf to range as well. Something like that. Possibly add in some slight electronic temp (-10-15%). Keep in mind inbuilt stats aren't affected by AT so it will be a serious reduction in any case. _________________ ~DarkSteel / Auxilium Universe Map: http://www.starsonata.com/map/
Mon Aug 29, 2016 8:21 am

The Voomy One Team: Rank: Councilor Main: The Voomy One Level: 1337 Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 12:06 am Posts: 4137	Re: Prawn Nerf Tomzta09 wrote: The Voomy One wrote: The Prawn did originally have 3 aug slots but was changed after the first couple of players got their hands on it and felt it was much too weak. Wasnt too bad at first but with all the augs and stuff that has been added to the game it really got totally out of hand. Going back to 3 aug slots would probably be the best way to balance it. It'd be best to unequip all 4 Augmenters if the slot is removed. Of course.
Mon Aug 29, 2016 8:29 am

the white wizard Team: Rank: Peon Main: The White Wizard Level: 4276 Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:28 am Posts: 252	Re: Prawn Nerf What's the point of removing the fourth aug slot if you're going to add inbuilt mods almost as good as an aug. The prawn will be good enough with having it's fourth aug removed and having added some inbuilt dps like +10% rof. _________________
Mon Aug 29, 2016 8:47 am

Pontius123 Main: The Shaft of Discipline Level: 3680 Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 6:45 pm Posts: 1082	Re: Prawn Nerf the white wizard wrote: What's the point of removing the fourth aug slot if you're going to add inbuilt mods almost as good as an aug. This. People who augged 2 CaL 2 Dwatt would simply augged it 1 CaL 2 Dwatt. _________________ Reddit Space Invaders!
Mon Aug 29, 2016 12:13 pm

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