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Post Re: returning to the BvB topic.
Rendghast's post is too long to quote reasonably, so I will begin anew.

1) This game is designed so that standard progression involves the player economy. It's not set up for you to do everything for yourself. If you insist on playing the game that way because that's just the kind of gamer you are, you should expect to hit bottlenecks at certain points.

2) Now it is you who have fallen for a logical fallacy. No number of battles could prove the statement wrong that the defensive standard required to survive a 5-kit BvB is inexpensive and sub-T20. Just because YOU haven't figured out how to make that true, you can't simply conclude that it's false. As a matter of fact, Churchill kindly furnished some good data a few posts later on using T18s to repel BvBs.

3) As a matter of fact, if you aren't aware of this basic fact of base combat balance, I would look upon your other BASE COMBAT opinions with extreme skepticism. That's not an ad hominem, that's just good sense. I'm sure you're great with the kids and all.

4) Regarding how many bases and drones, I'll refer you directly to Churchill's post since it sounds about right.

5) I'll also refer you to Masterful's post because OBVIOUSLY I am talking about essential base gear, not random T20 stuff you insist on building for yourself for some reason.

6) It's no kind of red herring that we flattened the power curve on base gear. I offer the example of how strong Argo kits are against PvB by means of illustrating how far we have come. Again, just because noobs have been dying to a renegade team's BvBs doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the balance of the system. Churchill has kindly illustrated how a noob team COULD do very well against 5 Ada kits with a very modest investment. The fact that they haven't been doing well brings me to the main points of my original post:

Quote:
1) The actual balance of base content in the game is fine.

2) The way new players experience base content and form opinions about it needs work.


7) It warms my heart to see a mid-level team organizing itself with galaxy defense requirements like that. Good job. Keep it up and you will soon have nothing to fear from the likes of 13, rendering all this rageposting quite irrelevant.

8)

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Mon Jan 30, 2017 7:19 am
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Post Re: returning to the BvB topic.
ah teh sekret sub 20 setup that can repel a 5 kit 13 attack, its not a unicorn, honest!
dont worry teh wise ones will always be on standbye to tell you why you never achieved it ..this time.
However they will never be on standbye to help before the subs are lost, alas!

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Mon Jan 30, 2017 7:48 am
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Post Re: returning to the BvB topic.
sabre198 wrote:
ah teh sekret sub 20 setup that can repel a 5 kit 13 attack, its not a unicorn, honest!
dont worry teh wise ones will always be on standbye to tell you why you never achieved it ..this time.
However they will never be on standbye to help before the subs are lost, alas!


This is why I wrote:

anilv wrote:
1) The actual balance of base content in the game is fine.

2) The way new players experience base content and form opinions about it needs work.


There is so much handwringing about mechanics when they mechanics aren't the problem. It distracts from the actual design issue which is that we still need better ways of scaffolding base building for new players.

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Mon Jan 30, 2017 7:50 am
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Post Re: returning to the BvB topic.
The whole mining damage meta renders anything other than T18/T20 kits with mining damage only, from shrugging off sieges.

There is no way in hell I'm going to use Achilles Laser Z, Andaman Pulse Gun, Achilles MagCannon, Annihilator Pulse Gun, Primal Fury, or Andaman MagCannon in any kind of credible defense because of the ridiculously resists to everything but mining damage.

Okay sure anti-PVB. But then I have Station Lances to use.

But the highest dps pulse gun, the Annihilator Pulse Gun, actually applies about 1/6th the dps of second place pulse gun, the Achilles Pulse Gun, because of 95% heat resist Ada T20s. In comparison, the same Ada T20 has 50% mining resist.

Your bread and butter T20 Laconia/Demented kit does about 250k damage with Achilles and just about 440k with Annihilator. But after factoring in resists (and ignoring soak for the time being), you get 125k mining dps and 22k heat dps. Soak will make this difference even worse.

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Mon Jan 30, 2017 8:27 am
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Post Re: returning to the BvB topic.
not even gonna bother reading Rend's post. I think I've stripped his credibility enough to where were not listening any more. If anyone still takes him seriously lmk

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Mon Jan 30, 2017 11:49 am
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Post Re: returning to the BvB topic.
MasterTrader wrote:
He didn't say CBA to build, he said can't be bothered to get their head around it all. It isn't very approachable.


Thank you.

I was also speaking in the position of newer players who come to this game. Yes, a fair few players have built up galaxies in Wild Space, but most of those have just been told what to do from older, more experienced players who have trillions in credits to throw at bases.

The basing system as it is right now isn't exactly new-mid player friendly. It's perfect for those who have played the game for years and accumulated dozens of sing spheres worth of Ada Gear but for new players who are looking to progress, it simply doesn't work. That's pretty much why almost all of the "newbie" and "mid-game" teams have pretty much died out, because they cannot survive and the system is extremely complicated. Any attempts to build a galaxy is completely squashed. It's also why around 75% of all newbie players who stick around, end up joining the bigger teams in the game. This is exactly why the large teams only continue to get larger and the very few small teams that exist, slowly fade away. For new players, the basing system is a giant mess and not just because of cost, but just how complicated the whole system of Adonis to Achilles to Bana to Adamantium is, it's just a massive headache. You can bet that's why there are so many "easy targets" in this game when it comes to demolishing entire teams, none of them can actually get their heads around the system. The ones that can most likely only can so because they've basically been spoonfed by the very few "professionals" or slightly experienced players who have got their heads around it. Take those players out of the equation however, and they're royally screwed. Most probably would not be able to stand on their own two feet without being guided or pointed in the right direction.

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Mon Jan 30, 2017 12:08 pm
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Post Re: returning to the BvB topic.
Tomzta09 wrote:
MasterTrader wrote:
He didn't say CBA to build, he said can't be bothered to get their head around it all. It isn't very approachable.


Thank you.

I was also speaking in the position of newer players who come to this game. Yes, a fair few players have built up galaxies in Wild Space, but most of those have just been told what to do from older, more experienced players who have trillions in credits to throw at bases.

The basing system as it is right now isn't exactly new-mid player friendly. It's perfect for those who have played the game for years and accumulated dozens of sing spheres worth of Ada Gear but for new players who are looking to progress, it simply doesn't work. That's pretty much why almost all of the "newbie" and "mid-game" teams have pretty much died out, because they cannot survive and the system is extremely complicated. Any attempts to build a galaxy is completely squashed. It's also why around 75% of all newbie players who stick around, end up joining the bigger teams in the game. This is exactly why the large teams only continue to get larger and the very few small teams that exist, slowly fade away. For new players, the basing system is a giant mess and not just because of cost, but just how complicated the whole system of Adonis to Achilles to Bana to Adamantium is, it's just a massive headache. You can bet that's why there are so many "easy targets" in this game when it comes to demolishing entire teams, none of them can actually get their heads around the system. The ones that can most likely only can so because they've basically been spoonfed by the very few "professionals" or slightly experienced players who have got their heads around it. Take those players out of the equation however, and they're royally screwed. Most probably would not be able to stand on their own two feet without being guided or pointed in the right direction.


I neither use nor have ada gear

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Mon Jan 30, 2017 12:17 pm
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Post Re: returning to the BvB topic.
There are many low level and mid level teams in WS, RIGHT NOW

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Mon Jan 30, 2017 12:18 pm
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Post Re: returning to the BvB topic.
anilv wrote:
1) This game is designed so that standard progression involves the player economy. It's not set up for you to do everything for yourself. If you insist on playing the game that way because that's just the kind of gamer you are, you should expect to hit bottlenecks at certain points.

Image

I did not say that ever piece of equipment needs to be available, i said that entry level ships need to be. If i want to stick to entry level equipment the whole game, and am willing to deal with the increased difficulty of the game to do that, that should be a viable option.

anilv wrote:
2) Now it is you who have fallen for a logical fallacy. No number of battles could prove the statement wrong that the defensive standard required to survive a 5-kit BvB is inexpensive and sub-T20. Just because YOU haven't figured out how to make that true, you can't simply conclude that it's false. As a matter of fact, Churchill kindly furnished some good data a few posts later on using T18s to repel BvBs.

Image

Churchhill was one of the people who both refuted that sub 18 bases can be used in BvB and that the number of kits you would need is prohibitive and that the below mentioned plan was non-viable. YOu really need to get on discord voice more enk.

anilv wrote:
3) As a matter of fact, if you aren't aware of this basic fact of base combat balance, I would look upon your other BASE COMBAT opinions with extreme skepticism. That's not an ad hominem, that's just good sense. I'm sure you're great with the kids and all.
Image

You have yet to demonstrate any of them to be correct.

anilv wrote:
4) Regarding how many bases and drones, I'll refer you directly to Churchill's post since it sounds about right.


Churchill intended that post to demonstrate the how completely unreasonable trying to use T18 bases to defend anything is. you like his numbers, so lets use them. Lets say a New team tried to take 5 galaxies with t16's. That would come to 300 dementuim they would need to do that just to be safe against a 5 kit attack, and possibly 600 dementium to deal with a 10 kit attack. And you do not see how this is cost prohibitive to any newer team? Please, tell me how to kill a deliquad in a Shrimp, i am all ears.

anilv wrote:
5) I'll also refer you to Masterful's post because OBVIOUSLY I am talking about essential base gear, not random T20 stuff you insist on building for yourself for some reason.
Um, how is ship progression "Random"? Its kinda the point of the game enk.

anilv wrote:
6) It's no kind of red herring that we flattened the power curve on base gear. I offer the example of how strong Argo kits are against PvB by means of illustrating how far we have come. Again, just because noobs have been dying to a renegade team's BvBs doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the balance of the system. Churchill has kindly illustrated how a noob team COULD do very well against 5 Ada kits with a very modest investment. The fact that they haven't been doing well brings me to the main points of my original post:


Pontius123 wrote:
It is extremely hard if not impossible to PVB a galaxy armed to the teeth with low tech kits from an active noob team. However, a proper siege will reduce this to rubble in a matter of hours, and doesn't actually have to be Dem/Ada siege kits, either; just has to be T18+. The amount of *STM* kits needed to dent a typical 5 ada kit siege is absurd, mainly because the mining vulnerability renders all other damage types useless pound for pound.


Churchhill again seems to be directly countering your arguments here enk. Also, the "Noobs" you are refering to include churchhill, stiffler, one of your dev team, and are mostly level 2k+. If players have to wait until level 2k to get into ws and thus get tech 20 ships, what are they supposed to do for 1200 levels stuck at tech 19?

anilv wrote:
7) It warms my heart to see a mid-level team organizing itself with galaxy defense requirements like that. Good job. Keep it up and you will soon have nothing to fear from the likes of 13, rendering all this rageposting quite irrelevant.


Every other person i have showed that document to has said it was insane and they would unsub before doing that level of building. That was half a dozen 2-4k players btw. That document would require 150 dementium minimum for a team to be in wild space at all, and 250 more likely. That is again a 300 billion credit investment simply to get a 2 billion cost ship. If you are saying that yes, every team in ws should have to do that level of play, then i want you to clearly and precisely say that right here, so i can quote it later, thank you.

Is this document the standard nessesary for a team to compete in ws?

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Mon Jan 30, 2017 12:49 pm
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Post Re: returning to the BvB topic.
Why does a new team who knows nothing about defending in wild space take 5 galaxies to defend?


Mon Jan 30, 2017 1:06 pm
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Post Re: returning to the BvB topic.
Pontius123 wrote:
So after reading through this long ass post with lots of pictures, I have to say this:

Zaurak was lost because of a multitude of little things that cumulated in one lopsided battle. The gist was we didn't have time to adequately fortify it because 13 has a massive hard on for DSF and watches the map like a bored ass hawk.


Let's not forget that Zaurak also had a ridiculously stupid allocation of HPS to DPS. 6 HPS and 4 DPS, when 2 HPS would have been more than sufficient, and more DPS would have made it impossible for anyone to come near your kits (also would have made your DPS far more than 13 could have feasibly tanked with just 1 HPS/4 DPS) with Unidyne, which also could have been neutralized by building high tech base exterminators. Rend is also completely fucking ignoring all of these factors to make his argument. His argument says it's impossible to defend, while ignoring the fact that DSF offered one of the shittiest defensive builds anyone could have ever pieced together with the resources presented.


Mon Jan 30, 2017 1:08 pm
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Post Re: returning to the BvB topic.
ShawnMcCall wrote:
Pontius123 wrote:
So after reading through this long ass post with lots of pictures, I have to say this:

Zaurak was lost because of a multitude of little things that cumulated in one lopsided battle. The gist was we didn't have time to adequately fortify it because 13 has a massive hard on for DSF and watches the map like a bored ass hawk.


Let's not forget that Zaurak also had a ridiculously stupid allocation of HPS to DPS. 6 HPS and 4 DPS, when 2 HPS would have been more than sufficient, and more DPS would have made it impossible for anyone to come near your kits (also would have made your DPS far more than 13 could have feasibly tanked with just 1 HPS/4 DPS) with Unidyne, which also could have been neutralized by building high tech base exterminators. Rend is also completely fucking ignoring all of these factors to make his argument. His argument says it's impossible to defend, while ignoring the fact that DSF offered one of the shittiest defensive builds anyone could have ever pieced together with the resources presented.


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Mon Jan 30, 2017 3:23 pm
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Post Re: returning to the BvB topic.
You know, I think this entire situation could be addressed very easily by doing one of two things:

A. Change Achilles Pulses to Physical Damage, and add an Apollo Pulse Gun that does mining damage. Everyone has access to the same level of mining damage now.

B. Make Mining Damage more common at various tech levels of base weaponry, Achilles Pulse Guns are no longer the best AND only source of base level mining weaponry.

Why?

I don't think the mechanics of bases are, themselves, very confusing. It's pretty easy to look at the stats and see what bases are weak to, it's easy to understand that more augmenter slots = better, and it's easy to figure out how important positioning is.

What's not easy to understand is why your kits do little to no damage to the enemies kits, but suddenly the enemy is shooting some green looking pulses that get closer and closer until "OH **** IT'S MINING DAMAGE WTF IS THIS!?!?!". There is no mining Apollo - Andaman weaponry at the lower base techs (Nor at the Annihilator level), and therefore most players never even consider high DPS mining weaponry in their builds/positioning/defensive strategies because WHY would they? Everything else has taught them that there is no mining base weaponry, so mining weaponry is just something you worry about from players.

When you look at the base weapons, and the base resistances, it is UNTHINKABLE that there would be a base mining weapon because of how much more powerful it is relative to any other base weapon. The game sets a precedent from Tech 0 to Tech 16, all of the weapons you can build do a variety of damage types but never mining damage. Then Tech 18 Achilles Pulses show up and are like "Sup bro, I know there's nothing else like me but deal with it 8) ". And then after you get to Tech 20 expecting "OK, so we got a Mining Pulse at tech 18. There must be mining damage base weapons at Tech 20!

Nope.


Mining damage in BvB greatly speeds up the time to kill a galaxy, and turns a galaxy that would be unkillable with conventional base weaponry (on the same exact kits you have the mining weapons) into silly putty. If you have 20 bases shooting mags, it's going to take a long time to kill the galaxy and the people defending can SEE what's going on and have time to adjust their augmenter setups/base setups.

When a certain subset of players (Those who have deployed Tech 18 and above kits, or have upgraded their kits to Tech 18) are the only ones that have access to viable mining damage, it skews the playing field heavily in their favor.

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Mon Jan 30, 2017 5:36 pm
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Post Re: returning to the BvB topic.
Option 1.

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Mon Jan 30, 2017 7:50 pm
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Post Re: returning to the BvB topic.
Danger wrote:
Why does a new team who knows nothing about defending in wild space take 5 galaxies to defend?

Becouse they have 3 vultures, 3 Reavers, 2 Rosmarius, 7 Assualt Behemoths, and 5 Dreadnaughts to build?

MasterTrader wrote:
A. Change Achilles Pulses to Physical Damage, and add an Apollo Pulse Gun that does mining damage. Everyone has access to the same level of mining damage now.

B. Make Mining Damage more common at various tech levels of base weaponry, Achilles Pulse Guns are no longer the best AND only source of base level mining weaponry.

Why?


You use this question rhetorically, but i consider this a legitimate question. This does not even address the problem, which is the massive disparity in augs and diffusers. Lemme drop two builds.

Tech 20 long range DPS

Tech 18 long range DPS

Now, the tech 20 is dishing out 500k damage and has 95% resistances, vs the t18 with 200k and 80%.

The Tech 20 is doing 100k effective DPS, to the tech 18's 10k. You would need a 10 to 1 ratio between the 18's and the 20's just to get the fight even, much less win it.

And this is completely ignoring the OVERWHELMING pvp advantage the tech 20 team will enjoy. Because a bunch of Marshal's, Testudo's, and Overloader's are absolutely going to WHOLLOP Kalthi squads.

You can fixate on this or that detail all you like, the problem is not one or two details. Its the scaling.

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