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Post Re: returning to the BvB topic.
lrellok wrote:
Danger wrote:
Why does a new team who knows nothing about defending in wild space take 5 galaxies to defend?

Becouse they have 3 vultures, 3 Reavers, 2 Rosmarius, 7 Assualt Behemoths, and 5 Dreadnaughts to build?


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This could be built with half a galaxy. No need for 5 of them. It's 4am so I cba to reply to the rest of your post in detail. Maybe in the morning.
I think it's a little funny you compared Laconia T18 v.s Ada T20 tho.

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Tue Jan 31, 2017 5:03 am
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Post Re: returning to the BvB topic.
MasterTrader wrote:
You know, I think this entire situation could be addressed very easily by doing one of two things:

A. Change Achilles Pulses to Physical Damage, and add an Apollo Pulse Gun that does mining damage. Everyone has access to the same level of mining damage now.

B. Make Mining Damage more common at various tech levels of base weaponry, Achilles Pulse Guns are no longer the best AND only source of base level mining weaponry.

Why?

I don't think the mechanics of bases are, themselves, very confusing. It's pretty easy to look at the stats and see what bases are weak to, it's easy to understand that more augmenter slots = better, and it's easy to figure out how important positioning is.

What's not easy to understand is why your kits do little to no damage to the enemies kits, but suddenly the enemy is shooting some green looking pulses that get closer and closer until "OH **** IT'S MINING DAMAGE WTF IS THIS!?!?!". There is no mining Apollo - Andaman weaponry at the lower base techs (Nor at the Annihilator level), and therefore most players never even consider high DPS mining weaponry in their builds/positioning/defensive strategies because WHY would they? Everything else has taught them that there is no mining base weaponry, so mining weaponry is just something you worry about from players.

When you look at the base weapons, and the base resistances, it is UNTHINKABLE that there would be a base mining weapon because of how much more powerful it is relative to any other base weapon. The game sets a precedent from Tech 0 to Tech 16, all of the weapons you can build do a variety of damage types but never mining damage. Then Tech 18 Achilles Pulses show up and are like "Sup bro, I know there's nothing else like me but deal with it 8) ". And then after you get to Tech 20 expecting "OK, so we got a Mining Pulse at tech 18. There must be mining damage base weapons at Tech 20!

Nope.


Mining damage in BvB greatly speeds up the time to kill a galaxy, and turns a galaxy that would be unkillable with conventional base weaponry (on the same exact kits you have the mining weapons) into silly putty. If you have 20 bases shooting mags, it's going to take a long time to kill the galaxy and the people defending can SEE what's going on and have time to adjust their augmenter setups/base setups.

When a certain subset of players (Those who have deployed Tech 18 and above kits, or have upgraded their kits to Tech 18) are the only ones that have access to viable mining damage, it skews the playing field heavily in their favor.


From what I've observed, most of the BvBs nowadays revolve around Achilles pulse guns. It would be nice to have more variety in terms of base vs base weaponry, rather than spamming mining damage combined with heals/core dumps.
Just throwing in my two cents here.


Tue Jan 31, 2017 7:23 am
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Post Re: returning to the BvB topic.
If anyone was too lazy to do the math, to defend against a T20 siege (Dem T20, Ada T20) with sub T18 (aka, noobville), you need 2 full accounts or 5 separate players with one character each at level 3000 to have a chance.

Noobs are not guaranteed to be level 3000 by the time they get to WS and deploy T16 bases, nor do they have the industry to build that kind of defense from EF layer materials.

Knowing that STM30 amounts of about double the strength of STM0, STM15 is about 50% better than STM0. That means, STM15 is about 3/4th the strength of STM30 and thus we need about 33% more defense for STM15 to equal STM30.

30 T16 DPS kits, 5-10 T16 HPS kits (depending on how strong industry is to produce Defenders). So let's assume there is no industry, no time. 13 appeared the second they owned the galaxy and there's an outpost waiting to step on them. We've got nearly 6 characters worth of *defense* bases deployed because none of the noobs have SM18 yet. This is assuming they are level 3000, too.

Because we have to step down to STM15, we now have a little over 8 characters worth of just *defense* kits, and about 54 bases deployed in total. This is before any kind of credible industry, so actual industry lags behind quite a bit because all the defense bases must be within range to defend against the siege.

While building the first few items on Rendghast's list is going to be relatively easy (it's just promethium basically), if you want to build dreadnoughts and we assume we start off with the EFDN bp and no have to go through the research hoops, that's a herculean task with basically no industry.

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Tue Jan 31, 2017 9:22 am
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Post Re: returning to the BvB topic.
Fyuryus wrote:
lrellok wrote:
Danger wrote:
Why does a new team who knows nothing about defending in wild space take 5 galaxies to defend?

Becouse they have 3 vultures, 3 Reavers, 2 Rosmarius, 7 Assualt Behemoths, and 5 Dreadnaughts to build?


Image
This could be built with half a galaxy. No need for 5 of them. It's 4am so I cba to reply to the rest of your post in detail. Maybe in the morning.
I think it's a little funny you compared Laconia T18 v.s Ada T20 tho.


I am not, i am the one arguing that they cannot be compared, that would be enk. please read the entire thread in the future. ty.

Also, i suggest you look at the prom requirements on those ships again. That is at least two belts, possibly three, and the metal requirement on those dreads would be 2-3 systems alone.

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Tue Jan 31, 2017 11:42 am
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Post Re: returning to the BvB topic.
To be honest, I think we could pull off the metals in one galaxy. The problem is that I have about 15 EXE25 or so kits and about 10 characters worth of NCC-Bulks/Leviathans/Dark Freighter/Selen slaves running around. If I was limiting myself to like Massif II's (yes, that's a roman numeral two), we'd need like an additional ten people plus the original already holding defensive kits to supply that kind of metal income. If I was tapping 100% of the galaxy and had enough MFM alts to transport it back to the prod, we can support 300m metals, 150m nuclear waste, and 450m silicon a day. And this isn't even one of the godly galaxies Traders have. WTF is this shit?

So we're packing 20 people into a galaxy that 1. can reasonably hold off 13 with a shotgun, and 2. actually build the stupidly resource intensive build that is an EFDN.

Going to reiterate the issues until people's' ears fall off:

->Mining damage or go home. You need an absolutely absurd amount of kits to defend against a simple 5 kit siege. If you somehow fail to bring achilles pulses and even with Ada T20 STM30 kits, you need a whopping 20 Ada T20 DPS kits to break *one* half assed Ada T20 HPS kit's heals.

->Certain builds have asinine build processes (gotta build each of the previous research bps and each one takes half a universe a piece) before you get to the one you want (the EFDN bp), of which has a stupid industrial cost that goes above and beyond what every other build at that level requires. Oh sure 100m metals. What *other* bp that produces a low end T20 item needs that many of any resource?

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Tue Jan 31, 2017 12:24 pm
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Post Re: returning to the BvB topic.
No one is expected to build their own first EFDN. The thought of this is absurd. I'm fine with making certain entry-level ships easier to obtain but that is not how the EF capital line works.

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Tue Jan 31, 2017 1:39 pm
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Post Re: returning to the BvB topic.
Wait a minute the prom requirements on those ships can easily be filled by one asteroid belt apart from the EFDN but the EFDN historically has always had complaints about it's complication (alongside the laser) even when it was the end-game capital ship.

Fortunately the EFDN has always been a "needed" ship so there is always an supply, of course the builds cost would have to be looked at if this ceased to happen.

If I really wanted too (ignoring the EFDN) I could build those ships if I wanted too, in fact I built DF's for myself with a unimpressive production setup this Uni.

There's no point in challenging your hypothesis however on the very fact that I doubt all those ships would be required to be built at the same time.

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Tue Jan 31, 2017 3:26 pm
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Post Re: returning to the BvB topic.
Every character I've ever tried to level with I put into an EFDN at level 500, I've yet to build one myself because by time you reach that level you could've made more than enough to buy an EFDN. But idk Im an idiot


Tue Jan 31, 2017 7:22 pm
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Post Re: returning to the BvB topic.
anilv wrote:
No one is expected to build their own first EFDN. The thought of this is absurd. I'm fine with making certain entry-level ships easier to obtain but that is not how the EF capital line works.


So then we need some entry level capships.

It feels pretty shitty the first entry level "T20" capship is a Pax Coronae.

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Tue Jan 31, 2017 9:55 pm
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Post Re: returning to the BvB topic.
Pontius123 wrote:
anilv wrote:
No one is expected to build their own first EFDN. The thought of this is absurd. I'm fine with making certain entry-level ships easier to obtain but that is not how the EF capital line works.


So then we need some entry level capships.

It feels pretty shitty the first entry level "T20" capship is a Pax Coronae.


I can handle that. *makes a note*

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Wed Feb 01, 2017 3:08 am
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Post Re: returning to the BvB topic.
Also, can we also have those entry level T20 ship blueprints (izer, pax astro, etc) be made Tech 18 and not Tech 20? Seems a little odd to need SM20 for something so ... crap.

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Wed Feb 01, 2017 4:47 am
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Post Re: returning to the BvB topic.
Pontius123 wrote:
Also, can we also have those entry level T20 ship blueprints (izer, pax astro, etc) be made Tech 18 and not Tech 20? Seems a little odd to need SM20 for something so ... crap.



can we just let them build t20 in EF layer so everyone can stfu

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Wed Feb 01, 2017 12:20 pm
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Post Re: returning to the BvB topic.
Can we make it so you need a full squad of PPS geared players before you can tackle one single PPS ai? That'd shut 13 up.

Also. Am wee sheet.

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Wed Feb 01, 2017 12:46 pm
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Post Re: returning to the BvB topic.
Pontius123 wrote:
Can we make it so you need a full squad of PPS geared players before you can tackle one single PPS ai? That'd shut 13 up.

Also. Am wee sheet.



Your sarcasm confuses me :roll:

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Wed Feb 01, 2017 12:48 pm
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Post Re: returning to the BvB topic.
I hope it does because requiring a person to at the next level to build the previous level is stupid beyond belief.

Imagine having to have SM22 to build a T21 ship. All T22 items coming from T23 bps (aka SM23).

Bullshit? Oh yeah, definitely bullshit.

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