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Post Re: returning to the BvB topic.
lrellok wrote:
You....really...don't.....ROFL.

Maniac, go read the original post on the topic again please and try to think, if i could install T20 BP's on an EF layer base, why would i be asking the admins to make an entire layer simply so people can install them?


Maniac, tech 20 blueprints in EF layer was removed about 4 years ago. Anyway, you seem either extremely ignorant in your options Rend, or you simply are lazy.

What is stopping you from acquiring tech 20 gear and kits from another player, in another team? Through favors, charity or purchase. You can also build tech 16 or 18 ada kits and use station tech upgrades to get them to 20. You can use UrQa kits as an alternative to the lower tech ada kits, and even tech them up to 20. You can build up your strength in an existing team, and then branch off to make your own independently with the tech 20 gear and kits you acquired while on that existing team. You could even do a bit of scavenging late into the uni of abandoned (and likely destroyed) kits from team conflicts, and take their gear if any is available.

How are you unable to find a way to build tech 20 gear and kits? How the heck did you end up thinking you were capable of helping new players?

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Sun Jan 29, 2017 3:13 am
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Post Re: returning to the BvB topic.
Station Tech Upgrades to T16 are AI base.

T16 to T18 is a rather rare DG drop.

T16/T18 to T20 is the Unt Faranji Station Tech.

Good luck with that one.

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Sun Jan 29, 2017 3:40 am
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Post Re: returning to the BvB topic.
I think the whole base system is a giant fucking complicated mess that people just don't have the time nor the drive to get their head around it all, to be honest.

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Sun Jan 29, 2017 7:58 am
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Post Re: returning to the BvB topic.
Tomzta09 wrote:
I think the whole base system is a giant fucking complicated mess that people just don't have the time nor the drive to get their head around it all, to be honest.


clearly not, as WS is extremely active

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Sun Jan 29, 2017 9:55 am
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Post Re: returning to the BvB topic.
Tomzta09 wrote:
I think the whole base system is a giant fucking complicated mess that people just don't have the time nor the drive to get their head around it all, to be honest.


This is probably the most truthful statement about this whole situation. The basing system is complicated as hell, and some of that complication should be clarified. The way things work doesn't need to get less complicated, but the way they're introduced to the player does.

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Sun Jan 29, 2017 2:02 pm
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Post Re: returning to the BvB topic.
MasterTrader wrote:
Tomzta09 wrote:
I think the whole base system is a giant fucking complicated mess that people just don't have the time nor the drive to get their head around it all, to be honest.


This is probably the most truthful statement about this whole situation. The basing system is complicated as hell, and some of that complication should be clarified. The way things work doesn't need to get less complicated, but the way they're introduced to the player does.


But its clearly not true that people cba, because people build..

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Sun Jan 29, 2017 2:05 pm
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Post Re: returning to the BvB topic.
He didn't say CBA to build, he said can't be bothered to get their head around it all. It isn't very approachable.

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Sun Jan 29, 2017 2:16 pm
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Post Re: returning to the BvB topic.
Here are some facts for your consumption (dis)pleasure.

1) The defensive standard required to survive a 5-kit BvB is not expensive and it does not require T20 kits or gear. Anyone who suggests otherwise is mistaken and you should not take their opinions on base combat seriously. If not using endgame gear, you *do* need a good number of lower tech kits and drones to achieve this defense level, however. A single alt's worth of bases and drones would not be enough, but a small team could manage it easily if they deployed their resources well.

2) Any essential base related T20 content can be constructed in a few hours. If you are venturing into Wild Space for the first time and anxious that a more permanent production facility might come under fire before you have finished your builds, you can set up a temporary production facility at essentially no cost and get your builds churned out in a couple of hours at most. Since you have a full 24 hours before anyone can BvB you (in fact, 24 hours after the first adjacent outpost goes up, so very likely a good deal longer), you can easily get all your essential items constructed before any BvB threat arises.

Now for some remarks with my dev hat on.

I find the premise of this conversation very interesting from a game design standpoint. In order to cut down on the power gap between new players and endgamers, we have leveled off the power curve of base gear dramatically. This means that Argonaut gear is not that far away in power from Adamantium/Armada gear, to the point that 20 Argonaut kits (2 alts' worth) are very difficult to kill with a pure PvB force. When you factor in the cost differential, you find that the higher you go in tech level, the less cost-effective the bases are. This means that in terms of value (stats per unit of cost), Quantity beats Quality.

On the other hand, there seems to be a tendency among new players to presume that Quality beats Quantity. Players like Rendghast seem to think that they need 5 Ada kits to keep a gal safe, when in fact they would do much better to deploy loads of lower tech kits at a fraction of the cost. Whenever he has brought up this issue of the supposed T20 gear construction bottleneck, there has been the underlying assumption that you *need* T20 base gear in Wild Space. You emphatically do not, but I can't blame an inexperience player for assuming that you do. This leads me to the following points:

1) The actual balance of base content in the game is fine.

2) The way new players experience base content and form opinions about it needs work.

I am open to suggestions on how to arrange things so that new players get the chance to learn more about how bases work.

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Sun Jan 29, 2017 5:13 pm
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Post Re: returning to the BvB topic.
Maybe difficult but a way to simulate BvB (Maybe in Building Academy?), but to keep the complexity and nuances intact limit how many bases would be allowed in this simulation?

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Sun Jan 29, 2017 6:42 pm
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Post Re: returning to the BvB topic.
NattoKilla wrote:
Maybe difficult but a way to simulate BvB (Maybe in Building Academy?), but to keep the complexity and nuances intact limit how many bases would be allowed in this simulation?


The best sim is the game itself. If anything we should have noobs BvBing each other regularly even before they get to Wild Space.

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Sun Jan 29, 2017 7:20 pm
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Post Re: returning to the BvB topic.
OK, quick detail before the main event.

SunDog60 wrote:
lrellok wrote:
What is stopping you from acquiring tech 20 gear and kits from another player, in another team? Through favors, charity or purchase.


When I say I will not pay into another insular Circlejerk, THIS IS WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT!! Why the hell should i have to ask another team to progress in levels. Why is currying favor with some cliq of Sr. Teams even something that would enter anyones head to mention? What is stopping me sundog is that there is no reason such a thing should ever be necessary, and the fact that you have brought it up is a reflection of STAGGERING problems with the basic design and layout of this game. All players should be able to progress in levels and basic equipment without regard for what any other player, or group of players, thinks of them doing so.

and now, warming up this fine gentlemen right here. http://imgur.com/gallery/U1q8s

anilv wrote:
Here are some facts for your consumption (dis)pleasure.

Image

Both the things you say after this are OPINIONS, not FACTS enk.

anilv wrote:
The defensive standard required to survive a 5-kit BvB is not expensive and it does not require T20 kits or gear.
A dozen battles in the last month decisively prove this wrong.
anilv wrote:
Anyone who suggests otherwise is mistaken and you should not take their opinions on base combat seriously.

Image

anilv wrote:
If not using endgame gear, you *do* need a good number of lower tech kits and drones to achieve this defense level, however. A single alt's worth of bases and drones would not be enough, but a small team could manage it easily if they deployed their resources well.
Image

How many kits and drones enk? How large of a "Small Team"?

anilv wrote:
Any essential base related T20 content can be constructed in a few hours.
Image

A Rosmarius takes 2 days to build with maximum workforce, a zebra takes 3. Since the only thing i need from the base IS the rosmarius/zebra, your statement is false.

anilv wrote:
Since you have a full 24 hours before anyone can BvB you (in fact, 24 hours after the first adjacent outpost goes up, so very likely a good deal longer), you can easily get all your essential items constructed before any BvB threat arises.
Image
See Above.

anilv wrote:
Now for some remarks with my dev hat on.

Can you start citing fact now too?

anilv wrote:
I find the premise of this conversation very interesting from a game design standpoint.
Well i am glad one of us does. I find this conversation terrifying from a game design standpoint.
anilv wrote:
In order to cut down on the power gap between new players and endgamers, we have leveled off the power curve of base gear dramatically. This means that Argonaut gear is not that far away in power from Adamantium/Armada gear, to the point that 20 Argonaut kits (2 alts' worth) are very difficult to kill with a pure PvB force.
Image

No one here is discussing PvB Enk. I am telling you that the last month of game play has divisively proven that a renegade team with a decent supply of kits could butcher any teams coming off EF in BvB. We know how to hold PvB, we have know that for 3 uni's, that is not an issue.

anilv wrote:
On the other hand, there seems to be a tendency among new players to presume that Quality beats Quantity.
Image

anilv wrote:
Players like Rendghast seem to think that they need 5 Ada kits to keep a gal safe, when in fact they would do much better to deploy loads of lower tech kits at a fraction of the cost. Whenever he has brought up this issue of the supposed T20 gear construction bottleneck, there has been the underlying assumption that you *need* T20 base gear in Wild Space. You emphatically do not,
which if you had bothered asking anyone involved in DSF, you would have been told i am fully aware of. Here, lemme help you, this is a planning document i threw together for DSF about two weeks ago. A dozen players told me that this level of defenses was entirely unnecessary and They would not for a second consider this plan. What YOU have just told me
anilv wrote:
This means that Argonaut gear is not that far away in power from Adamantium/Armada gear, to the point that 20 Argonaut kits (2 alts' worth) are very difficult to kill with a pure PvB force.
is that this plan would barely be able to stop a credible PvB force and stand no chance of stopping a BvB. Which means my concerns are entirely correct, and you simply do not want to deal with this problem.
anilv wrote:
This leads me to the following points:

1) The actual balance of base content in the game is fine.

2) The way new players experience base content and form opinions about it needs work.


Image

anilv wrote:
I am open to suggestions on how to arrange things so that new players get the chance to learn more about how bases work.


Will Post in Suggestion thread.

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Mon Jan 30, 2017 3:42 am
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Post Re: returning to the BvB topic.
What the fuck are you on about?

Enkelin is talking about T20 BASE GEAR not T20 ships which can't do jack shit against a base. T20 base gear can easily be built in a few hours.

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Mon Jan 30, 2017 4:18 am
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Post Re: returning to the BvB topic.
So after reading through this long ass post with lots of pictures, I have to say this:

Zaurak was lost because of a multitude of little things that cumulated in one lopsided battle. The gist was we didn't have time to adequately fortify it because 13 has a massive hard on for DSF and watches the map like a bored ass hawk.

I did the calculations. It is extremely hard if not impossible to PVB a galaxy armed to the teeth with low tech kits from an active noob team. However, a proper siege will reduce this to rubble in a matter of hours, and doesn't actually have to be Dem/Ada siege kits, either; just has to be T18+. The amount of *STM* kits needed to dent a typical 5 ada kit siege is absurd, mainly because the mining vulnerability renders all other damage types useless pound for pound. You would need to crank out 10m outgoing DPS and have something in the neighborhood of 2m HPS to withstand and repel those 5 bases, assuming you actually lack mining damage. To put this into perspective, that is around 30 DPS Laconia T16 STM30 kits, plus about 5 more kits for SL/HPS and about 25 Andaman Defenders.

As soon as you start deploying T18 kits, the number of defenses drop so fucking fast. You only need 10 STM30 Laconia T18 kits to do the same job. 3 SL/HPS bases and 25 Achilles Defenders will roughly equate the same HPS requirements. So slot usage I have dropped from 245 to 104 by having SM18 on all our STM players.

This seems all well and good for the noobs, who have deployed what amounts to 10b and watched their attacker waste 100b+ to take the galaxy out. However, rinse and repeat a couple more times and now all the noobs either unsubbed or joined Traders. 13 ain't there for the galaxy itself; he's there to make people cry. The noobs move to a new location, redeploy industry, and think they're okay? An hour later they find a 13 outpost next to their new galaxy and this shit happens all over again.

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Mon Jan 30, 2017 4:33 am
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Post Re: returning to the BvB topic.
@Enkelin

As far as I can see, I've highlighted two issues.

1. Mining damage meta trumps every single other strategic practice ... ever. And by so long of a shot we're talking about comparing a battleship to a hunting rifle.

2. The ease in actually setting up an outpost means for the noob team, there can be very little time between outpost deployed and the siege proper.

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Mon Jan 30, 2017 4:39 am
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Post Re: returning to the BvB topic.
anilv wrote:
NattoKilla wrote:
Maybe difficult but a way to simulate BvB (Maybe in Building Academy?), but to keep the complexity and nuances intact limit how many bases would be allowed in this simulation?


The best sim is the game itself. If anything we should have noobs BvBing each other regularly even before they get to Wild Space.


Indeed, then it's an issue of attitude then and approach to basing, I don't think it helps that the first instance/experience of BvB for new/noob player is complete destruction because they didn't build well, this leaves them with two choices, determination to improve and build better or be completely put off and potentially don't bother with the game. I think it goes without saying that we all want the former.

At the start of the Uni there are enemy bases/drones, why don't we implement this on a larger scale? Say we have a new zone/layer where you BvB/PvB nothing but Ai bases? We could link missions/rewards to them, then players on the lower end can experience a positive aspect to BvB, of course this doesn't displace end-gamers beating noobs most of the time, but that's an inevitability either way, as long as we can change the attitude it will be better for the game in the long run.

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