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Post Re: OFFICIAL: Engine adjustments on Test Server
Hober updated the original post to try to clarify what we're doing. Thanks for everyone's feedback so far and please take a look before continuing the conversation.

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Sun Aug 13, 2017 12:23 pm
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Post Re: OFFICIAL: Engine adjustments on Test Server
How eloquent. You used different words but the end result is the same. You want to nerf augmod engines and pills.

Care to deny this summation?


Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:31 pm
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Post Re: OFFICIAL: Engine adjustments on Test Server
crnerblitz wrote:
How eloquent. You used different words but the end result is the same. You want to nerf augmod engines and pills.

Care to deny this summation?


No, that is correct.

Why?

Even if you straight up *double* the stats of non-augmod engines without changing weight/size, people will use augmod engines over the former because of the additional benefits from the augmods. Any lack of mobility is solved by popping a tweak. Very few battles (primarily BVB of those few) last more than 15 minutes.


Sun Aug 13, 2017 3:35 pm
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Post Re: OFFICIAL: Engine adjustments on Test Server
Given every Engineer Voulge i know is obsessed with the Ada thruster, I'm not sure how true/accurate that statement really is.

When most engine stats are around the same, it makes absolute sense to choose ones with augmods to get more benefit out of it, I think it's a issue of that too many non-augmod engines simply suck.

Besides this crutch is based on people using tweaks to overcome lack of mobility, I really don't know anyone that actually enjoys having to use tweaks.

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Sun Aug 13, 2017 3:55 pm
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Post Re: OFFICIAL: Engine adjustments on Test Server
NattoKilla wrote:
Given every Engineer Voulge i know is obsessed with the Ada thruster, I'm not sure how true/accurate that statement really is.

When most engine stats are around the same, it makes absolute sense to choose ones with augmods to get more benefit out of it, I think it's a issue of that too many non-augmod engines simply suck.

Besides this crutch is based on people using tweaks to overcome lack of mobility, I really don't know anyone that actually enjoys having to use tweaks.


Exactly, which is why we are looking for ways to adjust the balance formulas so that non-augmodded engines can have really nice thrust stats compared to augmodded engines. Longer term, we are also interested in making Ace Pills more of a situational thing and putting extra power on the raw engine stats to compensate. So it sounds like you are on the same page as the dev team here.

crnerblitz wrote:
How eloquent. You used different words but the end result is the same. You want to nerf augmod engines and pills.

Care to deny this summation?


Sure, I'll deny it. As Hober has clarified in the new text, the purpose of this test server change is to see if the new stats on non-augmodded engines makes them worth using. If the answer is no, we will look into different ways in the balance sheets to make it so. If the answer is yes, we will shoot for that general margin (30-35% in this case) and scale the stats up so that no one is getting nerfed.

As far as Ace Pills go: yes, we want to nerf them so that they aren't something you have to carry around and spam all day. But if/when we do, we will be increasing engine stats to compensate.

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Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:11 pm
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Post Re: OFFICIAL: Engine adjustments on Test Server
Lets cut to the quick and call it like it is. You devs can own your failure here fess up beg forgiveness and perhaps the player base might listen.

You are nerfing everything in sight because you FAILED miserably and unquestionably in the class re balance endeavor. You just nerfed likely things that could maybe solve some problems and hoped for the best.

As it sits the skills tree is a damn pyramid. there is not opportunity cost in associated with it in any way. Sitting at the top is Imp tweaking because i wonder why enk?

Side note. How is backing a pirating scumbag like -13- making you look. You are the company you keep.

Back to your failures. With the skill tree not costing you anything in choices to be made you just stack the bonus's and bindo everything you can find. Because sitting in the upper tiers of the pyramid are bar skills and maxed neuro tweaking to stack mods.

You can continue to nerf everything in sight that actually does make you determine a cost and piss off the community. It will never cover over your failures to cut out the stacking multipliers that come with no opportunity cost.

/end rant


Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:40 pm
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Post Re: OFFICIAL: Engine adjustments on Test Server
And on a side, side note to freddies *rant*... DEVS SHOULDNT BE PLAYERS! :/


Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:20 am
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Post Re: OFFICIAL: Engine adjustments on Test Server
Brutally honest...


Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:20 am
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Post Re: OFFICIAL: Engine adjustments on Test Server
This game is starting to sound like another C2 piss pot. Did the devs not learn the first time when they almost killed the game that nerfs every week is the most retarded thing you can do. how much more of the player base do they have to lose until shit starts to click. but I guess we cant really expect much from half rate devs, they are mostly volunteer for a reason.

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Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:27 am
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Post Re: OFFICIAL: Engine adjustments on Test Server
xox hell xox wrote:
This game is starting to sound like another C2 piss pot. Did the devs not learn the first time when they almost killed the game that nerfs every week is the most retarded thing you can do.


No, they didn't learn. No matter how many saltposts you filthy old nostalgic players write bitching about changes, they will double down on them like they have been doing. They've done some outrageous nerfs, seen the playerbase doesn't like the nerfing so let's have more nerfing. They're not interested in what you old generation players think because once you leave, you will be replaced by players from steam who won't know any better.

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Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:46 am
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Post Re: OFFICIAL: Engine adjustments on Test Server
Tomzta09 wrote:

No, they didn't learn. No matter how many saltposts you filthy old nostalgic players write bitching about changes, they will double down on them like they have been doing. They've done some outrageous nerfs, seen the playerbase doesn't like the nerfing so let's have more nerfing. They're not interested in what you old generation players think because once you leave, you will be replaced by players from steam who won't know any better.


If what you say has a shred of truth behind it, the game is absolutely fucked when steam comes around and a certain party realize that the number of players coming in is far lower than expected.

@OP Tweaks are good, they provide a "hands on" aspect to the game, people tweak constantly to push setups to their full potential. What you're effectively doing is making the game even more afkable and just helping out those who don't use tweaks because they're bad (the players), or those who use said tweaks constantly and want to have the same benefits by doing fuck all. *Cough* ??.

I'm not entirely sure why you bothered editing the post after monumental disapproval from the wise (clearly) minority of the playerbase. The before and after of both edits are exactly the same and can't be sugar coated.


Mon Aug 14, 2017 11:51 am
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Post Re: OFFICIAL: Engine adjustments on Test Server
MasterTrader wrote:
In order to create more meaningful gameplay choices, we would like to make engines without augmods good enough that players consider using them.


Keep in mind that for certain classes, yes I am talking about FCs and myself, once our thrust/turn is at a point where moving around is reasonable, there is no point to use a better engine.

I basically need to maneuver my ship from point A to point B and occasionally move it to keep auras in range. I'm not doing circle strafes, hit and run tactics, or tricky dog fight maneuvers. So for me its not the case that the extra thrust/turn wasn't worth it on certain engines, its that there was absolutely no benefit at all to more thrust/turn beyond that reasonable point. Even if you made a super great engine with 70k thrust. As long as the one with 30 to 40k had even 1% more secondary stats, I would simply use that instead.

So just adding this info to the mix....


Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:48 pm
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Post Re: OFFICIAL: Engine adjustments on Test Server
dreadlordnaf wrote:
So just adding this info to the mix....


Precisely. In order to make non-augmod engines viable, they don't just need to have good stats, but the ones with the augmods need to be significantly weaker overall.

Using Ace in the Pill II for example, you almost triple your thrust and increase turning by 20%, which is perfectly valid for combat. You get 5 pills per crate.

Using other gear generally carries the issue of having a weaker item for augmods, but unlike other gear, Ace in the Pill tweaks solve the issue of a weak engine by giving you a cheap easy way to get more engine stats. And unlike the Source of Infinite Energy type tweaks and Werewolf Bite tweaks, you get the full benefit the second you use it. Energy and Shield tweaks need to recover that bank in order for them to be useful. There's no reason to have +100% shield tweak on a shield with no regen, have no shield charger, nothing will heal you, and you don't have Centered.

@Dread
For the record, this doesn't really affect Engineer or FC. It primarily affects SD, Sniper, Zerk, and Gunner.


Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:28 pm
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Post Re: OFFICIAL: Engine adjustments on Test Server
Max since you brought it up i will address the other shoe that will drop here. All tweaks really. Peeps use them in conjunction with augmod gear of the same thing. more shield for an augmod shield, ada tweaks. more e.regen for a augmod energy, inf energy tweak. more regen for shield regen, last stands or the uz one.

Its quite hodgepodge but it has been mapped. So tell me, why do some tweaks get an infinite use being made into super items that allow for sustained usage with augmod gear and some do not? Why are only augmod engines being looked at? Do you believe the devs will stop there?


Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:56 pm
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Post Re: OFFICIAL: Engine adjustments on Test Server
The developer (Pixel/Markoz) that was working on tweaks was given a higher priority task (Station Management 22). The work is unfinished.

As far as I'm aware, the goal for neuro tweaks was something like this:

->You cannot equip/use more than one tweak per type. You get one of Offense, Shield, Energy, and Mobility slots to use one of that type of tweak in. Offense includes range, tracking, damage, RoF, etc stats.

->All neuro tweaks carry a downside. For the most pat the downside is minor, (-8% elect on SSS) but using tweaks is not 100% benefit. Some tweaks, generally the more powerful ones, would carry larger downsides.

->Consumable Tweaks are meant to be limited in number. Perhaps even limited amount equipped at a given time. But they can be used on demand with no prior (or extremely small charge energy and charged almost instantaneous) cool down.

->Superitem Tweaks are unlimited "Use". You need 50 of the Consumable Tweak to build it, assuming the Consumable has a superitem version. I presume Lyceum Tweaks will never have superitem versions. However, the superitem has a cooldown. It takes time to charge up, and uses a superitem slot.


Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:57 am
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