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Post Re: Trade Efficiency Redefined
You are correct for good and exc, since for those digs the speed/capacity sug ratio is much higher than lower tech augs. But for lower, capacity is always better.

So for a more than 2 aug ship t13 and above only the first 2 should be capacity, the rest speed. Though there are few in this class besides the pax selen that this even applies to, and Heph still provides better trade value by far with the -speed bonus reduced through slave tweaking.

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Wed Mar 14, 2012 5:24 pm
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Post Re: Trade Efficiency Redefined
notes
BTs are only good with right auging and MfM or both bases not moving/slowly moving
HR+ and Fwing are best for moving small amounts of prom on long distance
still like pax Xmas lot more then levis, massif bulk or 80% of those that are "better" but thats my opinion
NCC-special? where is it? it should be high in there (little under the ncc-bulk i think)

if RC19 will get in a M3 will beat this all!

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Thu Mar 15, 2012 12:19 am
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Post Re: Trade Efficiency Redefined
lordjeroen wrote:
notes
BTs are only good with right auging and MfM or both bases not moving/slowly moving
HR+ and Fwing are best for moving small amounts of prom on long distance
still like pax Xmas lot more then levis, massif bulk or 80% of those that are "better" but thats my opinion
NCC-special? where is it? it should be high in there (little under the ncc-bulk i think)

if RC19 will get in a M3 will beat this all!


RC19 will never happen hah. I somehow skipped NCC-Special, I'll add it later. It's so rare that it doesn't make much of a difference. Haha it surprised me too, Bulk Trader+ is better than Pax Xmas. 1 Aug slot kills it.

As for BT's, even without augs they have the highest trade value. So anyone willing to put forth a working aug setup for normal colony bases and such? ST is more useful in this case as MFM adds little thrust/turning in comparison to 5 slots.

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Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:43 am
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Post Re: Trade Efficiency Redefined
I did some number crunching a while ago... in almost every situation a BT is too heavy to move.

Also, MFM makes a difference when you're considering things such as a BT (and its mass) and travel fields.

Overall I've done some number crunching and your table seems to be flawed. I'd rate selens higher than Massif/2 (in terms of commods/second, yet alone wasted time trying to catch the base). They are also superior to wardens effs (etc)...

In terms of raw commodity transport/second (over distance, without zerker fields) a selen pulls roughly 2.3 million, whereas a leviathan+ hauls 2 million and a warden pushes roughly 1.7 million/second (poor acceleration on the warden though so actual values would be lower).

To put that into perspective I'll adjust for slave slots (in generic units):

BT: 2.1 (ignoring the mass of its load AKA not really).
Leviathan+: .25
Selen: .26
Warden: .21
Massif+: .19
EFF: .18 (including travel field)
NCC bulk: .19
NCC special: .22
OS rosfire: .15
Vazaha Proto: .16
Pax Xmas: .13
Yeah... EFF suck.

Also, damn you for giving me such a good thing to waste time disproving!

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Last edited by The Salty One on Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:19 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Thu Mar 15, 2012 1:47 pm
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Post Re: Trade Efficiency Redefined
Since you didn't explain where you got your units and my values actually make sense I'm going to have to ask for more data than you provided if you want me to change anything :-P

You are including the new aug formula right? I need to change selens in a sec to compensate for the last 2 augs being speed instead of cap but it still won't be higher than ncc-bulk I think.

I've seen successful battle thatch slaves, if you only used thrust and agility/nimbleness augs it should work. But with MFM it's hull space makes it way to heavy to move, a ratio of 5x more space than is compensated with thrust (10% with respect to 2% thrust/turning)

But you may be correct because I didn't include any weight values, some ships will need large engines or waste time catching up depending on the speed of the planet. But with Unt Faranji Trekker MFM 30, a massif+ will reach 72 speed which is more than enough to see a problem (with a good engine)

No table is completely foolproof I'm open to suggestions/refinements

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Thu Mar 15, 2012 3:25 pm
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Post Re: Trade Efficiency Redefined
You have to include MFM augmenters slave tweaking and a pax shield (nobody has that many/characters with the skill anyway).

An example would be the leviathan+ (If it's truly difficult to calculate the others I'd like to keep them >.>).

3300 hullspace
41 speed

Add two exc cap augs, apply tweaking--> 49*2*1.6=156.8%
Apply MFM 20 (I think it's 200% hullspace 40% speed, applied uniformly so it's of little consequence).
Include basic expander.
3*2.568* (3300+50)=25808 hullspace.

Calculate speed (speed shield, MFM)

1.47*1.4*41=84

Multiply

84*25808=2.2 million

Your slave will move 2.2 million commodities for every unit of distance (this ignores docking time... if you really want to work out the average distance and apply).

Now let's do an EFF.

Two std cap augs--> 116.8 Now add a kikale mzungu expansion (may as well)
2.268*3*(450+55)--> 3436
Multiply with speed
((90*1.4*1.47)+70)*3436=876941

So we've got those two values, now let's divide by slave slots (8 and 5)
We end up with
Levi: .28 million
EFF: .18 million

Whereas if I don't add those the travel field/expander weigh in far more heavily and we get (in thousands):

EFF: 18
Levi: 17

Values may vary somewhat due to forgetting a small thing here or there... but the general ratios are the same and it's certainly not difficult to work them out.

I may have fudged the EFF figure in the first one as I forgot to apply slave travel fields and what not, but realistically not many people have kikale expansions lying around to stick on EFF.

Also, some of the planets closer to suns can go rather quickly... even if it's only going 40 that effectively halves the levi's speed whilst it tries to catch up.

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Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:23 pm
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Post Re: Trade Efficiency Redefined
The Salty One wrote:
You have to include MFM augmenters slave tweaking and a pax shield (nobody has that many/characters with the skill anyway).

An example would be the leviathan+ (If it's truly difficult to calculate the others I'd like to keep them >.>).

3300 hullspace
41 speed

Add two exc cap augs, apply tweaking--> 45*2*1.6=156.8%

Actually augs don't work like that...
It's base hull+.45*1.6*hull+.45*1.6*hull


Apply MFM 20 (I think it's 200% hullspace 40% speed, applied uniformly so it's of little consequence).

60% speed and 200% hull for MFM 30, I have a spreadsheet for that. 40% speed and 100% hull for MFM 20.

Include basic expander.
3*2.568* (3300+50)=25808 hullspace.

3*(3300+3300*Augbonus+3300+Augbonus) actually.

Calculate speed (speed shield, MFM)

1.47*1.4*41=84

84*25808=2.2 million

The final value for FinalSpeed*FinalHull/SlaveSlots (then divided by another constant to make easily comparable values) gives:

Levi+: 733
EFF: 500

With ST and MFM the values are much farther apart, but Levi+ is at the top of my sheet anyways so i'm not sure what you're trying to prove.

Without MFM or ST the efficiency values are:

Levi+: 107
EFF: 83


look at my spreadsheet.

Your slave will move 2.2 million commodities for every unit of distance (this ignores docking time... if you really want to work out the average distance and apply).

Now let's do an EFF.

Two std cap augs--> 116.8 Now add a kikale mzungu expansion (may as well)
2.268*3*(450+55)--> 3436
Multiply with speed
((90*1.4*1.47)+70)*3436=876941

So we've got those two values, now let's divide by slave slots (8 and 5)
We end up with
Levi: .28 million
EFF: .18 million

you forgot to include how many slave slots each ship takes. So muliply levi number*5/8 to compare with EFF AFTER you use the correct numbers. Look at my spreadsheet.

Whereas if I don't add those the travel field/expander weigh in far more heavily and we get (in thousands):

EFF: 18
Levi: 17

Values may vary somewhat due to forgetting a small thing here or there... but the general ratios are the same and it's certainly not difficult to work them out.

I may have fudged the EFF figure in the first one as I forgot to apply slave travel fields and what not, but realistically not many people have kikale expansions lying around to stick on EFF.

Also, some of the planets closer to suns can go rather quickly... even if it's only going 40 that effectively halves the levi's speed whilst it tries to catch up.

With MFM all ships don't have that problem usually, but without it I agree you'd need a slave more geared towards speed. You can easily see speed of the high-tier Trade Value ships on my spreadsheet

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Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:44 pm
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Post Re: Trade Efficiency Redefined
Also including a speed shield in all this is useless because it gives the same exact multiplier to every ship, so I left it out on purpose.

Now editing to update some general slave tips and add my most recent spreadsheets

EDIT: Pax Selen Moved up 1 spot on general list because of Aug Setup: 3 cap 1 speed. Moved up several slots on ST and MFM ST with 3 Heph 1 Exc. Speed

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Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:53 pm
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Post Re: Trade Efficiency Redefined
According to frac's calculator and what I remember of working from enk's post the effect is exactly the same/concurs with what I used.

http://wiki.starsonata.com/index.php/Me ... eet_Master

Wiki says 10% per level so you might want to double check that and update it then.

The levi/EFF comparisons are already equalized for the number of slave slots taken (on the line you pointed to, above they weren't).

The slaves I've compared my results to ingame are almost perfectly in sync, dunno how you're working things (maybe post an example of how you'd work out the EFF's commod/second rate including everything).

Speed shields are important because certain setups utilize significant/speed boosts and they don't match up if you ignore the speed shields. Especially the ones using travel fields.

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Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:59 pm
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Post Re: Trade Efficiency Redefined
I'll let you guys sort out the aug math, but I want to point out that since inbuilts don't multiply with augs and other inbuilts, it really is important to figure in the speed shield for comparisons. Heuristically, it will help setups that have less speed augging more than those with lots of speed augging.

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Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:36 pm
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Post Re: Trade Efficiency Redefined
Alright I think salty and I are beating a dead horse haha. But I did mess up the hull bonus for MFM I need to fix that.

Enkelin I agree with you but realistically there are so many speed shields that it's hard to find a good number to multiply by. Most people without high-budget setups will use phantomstreams though so I could use a 1.45 multiplier on another table and lable it as "speed shield table."

It's quite easy to find out the speed for yourself by looking at the table and multiplying by the bonus, but if people want a "ballpark estimate" i'll make one lol.

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Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:07 pm
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Post Re: Trade Efficiency Redefined
All of the links in the OP give me 404 errors.

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Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:15 pm
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Post Re: Trade Efficiency Redefined
yeah I deleted them all because they were behind (I had updated them since) and I haven't uploaded them yet bc my hotel's internet is glitching. But will do soon this should be the final edit

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Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:03 pm
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Post Re: Trade Efficiency Redefined
So what exactly does the trade value mean? If I were to take 2 slaves with the same trade value where one uses less slaves slots, which is better?


Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:33 pm
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Post Re: Trade Efficiency Redefined
Visorak wrote:
So what exactly does the trade value mean? If I were to take 2 slaves with the same trade value where one uses less slaves slots, which is better?


The trade value is divided by the number of slave slots already that the ship takes up. So if you filled slave slots to the max with two slaves of different techs that had the SAME trade value, there'd be no difference.

For instance a bulk trader+ has the same efficiency as a Bulk II+, so you'd need 2 bulk+'s for every bulk II+ but they would fill the same slots and move the same goods just as fast. At 8 bulk+'s= 4 bulk II+'s.

Sometimes there's a dilemma with the number of slots, such as you'll have slots left over but not enough for the ship you'd like, making lower tech ships more versatile. Also you can more more TYPES of goods with lower tech ships because currently you can't move 2 goods effectively with 1 ship.

Also higher tech ships are usually more expensive and so are their augmenters.

UPDATE: soon to be adding "speed" ship values separate

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Wed Mar 21, 2012 9:20 pm
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