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Post Re: Proposed Class Rebalance
Tomzta09 wrote:
They will use cloaks and use long range hard hitting weapons. Stop hating, start appreciating the class, Spatzz.


If you didn't catch it, Spatzz and Scyron are trolling someone who really thing a space game should be based on RL terminology, which would put Exodus out of a job as he'll be a visible, fragile, low damage class that can see the future, making his usefulness in combat as useful as Merchant Fleet class of the old class skills.


Wed Jun 05, 2013 4:14 am
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Post Re: Proposed Class Rebalance
Max235 wrote:
Tomzta09 wrote:
They will use cloaks and use long range hard hitting weapons. Stop hating, start appreciating the class, Spatzz.


If you didn't catch it, Spatzz and Scyron are trolling someone who really thing a space game should be based on RL terminology, which would put Exodus out of a job as he'll be a visible, fragile, low damage class that can see the future, making his usefulness in combat as useful as Merchant Fleet class of the old class skills.


That's if I don't end up in a prison somewhere, as seer's are notorious for surprising people from behind.
Alongside this, I am pretty sure being a Fleet Commander in RL has been illegal since 1863.


Wed Jun 05, 2013 4:40 am
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Post Re: Proposed Class Rebalance
Max235 wrote:
Tomzta09 wrote:
They will use cloaks and use long range hard hitting weapons. Stop hating, start appreciating the class, Spatzz.


If you didn't catch it, Spatzz and Scyron are trolling someone who really thing a space game should be based on RL terminology, which would put Exodus out of a job as he'll be a visible, fragile, low damage class that can see the future, making his usefulness in combat as useful as Merchant Fleet class of the old class skills.


I know Spatzz has an irrational hatred for Snipers and has an interest in constantly trying to say they are overpowered and that analysis is stupidly broken, when deep down he is only angry at Prawn Snipers.

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Wed Jun 05, 2013 5:12 am
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Post Re: Proposed Class Rebalance
Tomzta09 wrote:
I know Spatzz has an irrational hatred for Snipers and has an interest in constantly trying to say they are overpowered and that analysis is stupidly broken, when deep down he is only angry at Prawn Snipers.


Irrational to you maybe. I think he motivates it quite well.

I think most people agree that prawn snipers can dish out insane amounts of DPS, in a way that no other class even comes close. Therefore, more people agree with nerfing prawn snipers. Currently, it's just way out of scale.

As for sniper analysis in general - it's made sniper the cheapest and easiest solo class in the game. With a minimal investment, you can solo various bosses that 500b setups of other classes can't solo. What's your rational counter-argument to this "irrational" motivation?

Is it that sniper is the only properly designed class, and all other classes should solo just as much content, with just as much effort? If so, then it's a matter of opinion, and personally I think that'd be a bad idea. I say balance content by minimizing the peaks - nerf sniper and beef other classes solo abilities, rather than bring everything up to highest possible level. And let named bosses remain hard, and not push-overs.

Edit: Instead of making everything soloable by everyone, I think they should encourage squading and teamwork by a) keeping content hard to solo, b) make all classes able to contribute to squads (like in many of the suggestions in this thread), and c) make it easier to form squads and find people to squad with. Like in this suggestion.

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Wed Jun 05, 2013 5:39 am
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Post Re: Proposed Class Rebalance
I always liked the idea of gunners having turrets, which could be a nice visual alternative to auto-target. I feel that for the proposed gunner changes/turrets you should probably nerf missiles and then introduce some kind of 'missile ops' stat, allowing players to chose between being either focusing on one or becoming a hybrid.

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Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:42 am
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Post Re: Proposed Class Rebalance
The Salty One wrote:
I always liked the idea of gunners having turrets, which could be a nice visual alternative to auto-target. I feel that for the proposed gunner changes/turrets you should probably nerf missiles and then introduce some kind of 'missile ops' stat, allowing players to chose between being either focusing on one or becoming a hybrid.

Love the missile ops idea. The way things are currently a Gunner maxes his missiles DPS by aquiring level 21 in a class skill and getting the capped launchers for his ships, is it 3 for cap ships now? Seems odd that there is no way to boost it any further and such an easy way to get it so high in the first place.

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Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:53 am
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Post Re: Proposed Class Rebalance
Tomzta09 wrote:
Max235 wrote:
Tomzta09 wrote:
They will use cloaks and use long range hard hitting weapons. Stop hating, start appreciating the class, Spatzz.


If you didn't catch it, Spatzz and Scyron are trolling someone who really thing a space game should be based on RL terminology, which would put Exodus out of a job as he'll be a visible, fragile, low damage class that can see the future, making his usefulness in combat as useful as Merchant Fleet class of the old class skills.


I know Spatzz has an irrational hatred for Snipers and has an interest in constantly trying to say they are overpowered and that analysis is stupidly broken, when deep down he is only angry at Prawn Snipers.

I just dislike unbalanced things. Yeah, Prawn Sniper seems a bit stronger. You what what no one complains about? Prawn on any other class. Juju Sniper is also pretty wicked strong, guess what I have never seen a complaint about? Other classes soloing tons of stuff easily in a Juju. I have heard a Zebu can be wicked strong but I also think an Engineer Zebu can solo Rattie Moe as well so I'll let that one lie.

If we are going to take pot shots at irrational behavior then maybe you should consider your intense bias for the class you mainly play? As I have said countless times, __, Cyg's Sniper who he lets me use, allows me to solo everything in the game (besides RNF) with my 4 man squad. Soon as Sniper is nerfed like this things will either be harder/take longer or I'll just need to invite more people to come along. Either way I am arguing to nerf my ability to do everything, maybe I am just stupid (or actually like game balalance :P)

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Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:57 am
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Post Re: Proposed Class Rebalance
It was probably a big mistake to put this up for voting in the first place, it's something that needs to be done, cant leave it up to the players to decide on something like this.

With the rate that new suggestion rounds are started it's going to take years before any class rebalance gets done, if ever.


Wed Jun 05, 2013 3:42 pm
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Post Re: Proposed Class Rebalance
Scyron wrote:
Tomzta09 wrote:
I know Spatzz has an irrational hatred for Snipers and has an interest in constantly trying to say they are overpowered and that analysis is stupidly broken, when deep down he is only angry at Prawn Snipers.


Irrational to you maybe. I think he motivates it quite well.

I think most people agree that prawn snipers can dish out insane amounts of DPS, in a way that no other class even comes close. Therefore, more people agree with nerfing prawn snipers. Currently, it's just way out of scale. Agreed.

As for sniper analysis in general - it's made sniper the cheapest and easiest solo class in the game. With a minimal investment, you can solo various bosses that 500b setups of other classes can't solo. What's your rational counter-argument to this "irrational" motivation? A Developer said once one reason why snipers can easily kill most bosses is because most bosses can't fight Snipers. Increasing the time it takes to charge Sniper analysis would be better than changing how one is supposed to charge it.

Is it that sniper is the only properly designed class, and all other classes should solo just as much content, with just as much effort? If so, then it's a matter of opinion, and personally I think that'd be a bad idea. I say balance content by minimizing the peaks - nerf sniper and beef other classes solo abilities, rather than bring everything up to highest possible level. And let named bosses remain hard, and not push-overs. Sniper doesn't exactly need a Nerf though thats the thing. Other classes do need beefing, especially Berserker.

Edit: Instead of making everything soloable by everyone, I think they should encourage squading and teamwork by a) keeping content hard to solo, /signed, although there will always be ways to solo content, but they get beefed, like Olympus. b) make all classes able to contribute to squads (like in many of the suggestions in this thread), Seer and SD. and c) make it easier to form squads and find people to squad with. Like in this suggestion.


Chaosking3 wrote:
I just dislike unbalanced things. Yeah, Prawn Sniper seems a bit stronger. You what what no one complains about? Prawn on any other class. Because it is not as powerful on other classes as it is on a Sniper. Juju Sniper is also pretty wicked strong, guess what I have never seen a complaint about? Because you cannot make a Juju Sniper as powerful as a Prawn sniper, and even if you did find a way, it has a super-weakness. Prawns however, have that 4th aug slot, access to some bloody powerful augmenters and the Prawn's Claw. Other classes soloing tons of stuff easily in a Juju. Mostly because nobody gives a shit. I don't know why... I have heard a Zebu can be wicked strong but I also think an Engineer Zebu can solo Rattie Moe as well so I'll let that one lie. Really? Damn I didn't know that.

If we are going to take pot shots at irrational behavior then maybe you should consider your intense bias for the class you mainly play? I am not biased, I just find the current "Rebalance" proposals nothing more than a load of crap that Jeff_L has said without properly looking at how classes are played. This has happened before, like when Sniper was nerfed to the point where it was completely useless, and only 3 people played it. We kept saying it was awful, but they insisted it was fine, but then they played it and actually learned something. As I have said countless times, __, Cyg's Sniper who he lets me use, allows me to solo everything in the game (besides RNF) with my 4 man squad. Soloing with a 4 man squad? That makes perfect sense. Soloing is one character, not a squad. Cygs Sniper is a PRAWN? Of course you can do that for goodness sake. Soon as Sniper is nerfed like this things will either be harder/take longer or I'll just need to invite more people to come along. Or just try to use a ship that is not a Prawn? Any kind of change would be better than the one Jeff_L has proposed is what I am trying to say. Either way I am arguing to nerf my ability to do everything, maybe I am just stupid (or actually like game balalance :P) As I said, if you want a bit more of a Challenge, do not use a Sniper Prawn, use something else.

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Wed Jun 05, 2013 3:57 pm
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Post Re: Proposed Class Rebalance
The only thing you use to argue balancing sniper is that Prawn is strong. You still ignore what non Prawn Snipers can do which is the main reason why Analysis is being lowered. As I said, which you ignored, was that Sniper in almost any quality t18+ ship is able to solo content no other class can even at end game, that is not an opinion, that is a fact. If you have a solid argument that proves that statement wrong then toss it out.

Your other arguments are that all other classes need to be beefed up to Sniper's level or all content needs to be redone so it can fight Sniper. Maybe instead of these two massive changes to the game we can instead change one small thing? There is an obvious issue with how Sniper works in PvAI which is proven by the amount of content even low end Snipers can solo and how many bosses have had to be hot fixed in order to prevent this (which it still does not in most cases). Mauso, KKK, Emp, those are 3 perfect examples. I have yet to run into the uber that needed to have a patch shoved through because people with 3+ different level 1.2k Engineers in Pax Astros were soloing it 3 times per lockout.

It is obvious you profit amazing amounts from Sniper's current power level which explains your desire to keep things the way they are. The issue with that is the game suffers when such ridiculously unbalanced content is allowed to sit. And shocker, Prawn works best on Sniper? What ship does NOT work best on Sniper? :lol:

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Wed Jun 05, 2013 5:23 pm
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Post Re: Proposed Class Rebalance
Actually, I could solo content in a Vicar, if I could be assed to build it.
Though, Spatzz, I would argue a Dreadnought is a horrible ship on a sniper. Slow, fat, and extremely hard to stealth. Not even going to go into the fact it has two augs, either.


Wed Jun 05, 2013 5:32 pm
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Post Re: Proposed Class Rebalance
Tommeh always rage when someone talk about nerfing sniper, even by a little bit ;]
it's not even worth trying to convince him, especially that he is a liar and most likely knows it deserves nerf, but won't ever admire it.
:wink:

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Wed Jun 05, 2013 5:40 pm
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Post Re: Proposed Class Rebalance
Chaosking3 wrote:
The only thing you use to argue balancing sniper is that Prawn is strong. You still ignore what non Prawn Snipers can do which is the main reason why Analysis is being lowered. As I said, which you ignored, was that Sniper in almost any quality t18+ ship is able to solo content no other class can even at end game, that is not an opinion, that is a fact. Where did I deny that statement? I only said it wasn't insanely broken like you are insisting, and that AIs just didn't know how to deal with a Sniper. I did not say it wasn't a fact. If you have a solid argument that proves that statement wrong then toss it out.

Your other arguments are that all other classes need to be beefed up to Sniper's level or all content needs to be redone so it can fight Sniper. Maybe instead of these two massive changes to the game we can instead change one small thing? There is an obvious issue with how Sniper works in PvAI which is proven by the amount of content even low end Snipers can solo and how many bosses have had to be hot fixed in order to prevent this (which it still does not in most cases). Mauso, KKK, Emp, those are 3 perfect examples. I have yet to run into the uber that needed to have a patch shoved through because people with 3+ different level 1.2k Engineers in Pax Astros were soloing it 3 times per lockout.

It is obvious you profit amazing amounts from Sniper's current power level which explains your desire to keep things the way they are. Actually I don't, I have not done anything content wise in a long time, because none of it is fun, nor do I get anything out of it. I want things to be kept the way they are because everything that was mentioned in the rebalance is not needed. It just seems that every time some kind of new zone is added in, something is added in beforehand which affects the entire playerbase. The issue with that is the game suffers when such ridiculously unbalanced content is allowed to sit. And shocker, Prawn works best on Sniper? It does. What ship does NOT work best on Sniper? :lol: I merely suggested you try doing content with your "amazing" 4 man squad with a Sniper that isn't in a Prawn, it might make things more fun and interesting for you.


Sybir: I find it funny that you decide to talk shit about me on here, despite how often you used to ask me for tips on Sniper. Also, if I am loving every moment of it all and I am a "liar", then why do I 100% support any suggestion that involves removing / nerfing Prawns to shit, and removing critical hit effects, two things that so called snipers nowadays cannot live without. So unless you have something to accuse me of lying about and can 100% back it up, sit the fuck down, you're embarrassing yourself.

Scyron: about your squad suggestion, one key reason why people do not DG in squads is because the loot is not worth the effort, and is often extremely rare, hence people DG by themselves or with their own MCed characters, because when you do get that odd amazing drop, you will not have to worry about deciding who gets it. Selfishness ftw.

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Wed Jun 05, 2013 6:51 pm
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Post Re: Proposed Class Rebalance
Nerfing Prawn would not balance Sniper, that is the flaw with your argument.

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Wed Jun 05, 2013 7:38 pm
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Post Re: Proposed Class Rebalance
No class is completely balanced, and changing one single thing would not balance any of them. But I would argue that the one class that is fairly close to a finished product is sniper. This doesn't mean the current sniper is a good product, just the closest class to being ready for shipping to the customer. However it says a lot for the other classes, if sniper isn't fully ready.

Right now, I think the best thing is to receive an official statement on what each class is supposed to do uniquely better than another class, without stomping on generic roles and abilities that all classes to some degree should be able to maintain.


Wed Jun 05, 2013 8:02 pm
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