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Post Proposed Class Rebalance
Speed Demon

Speed Demon will gain more DPS and survivability.

  • Change Speedy firing from +20% damage, +80% firing, to +60% damage, +60% firing.
  • Speedy Movement gains a "dodge" skill that scales with speed giving a ((speed diff+100) / 1000) chance to dodge all lasers and bullets. Speed diff is calculated as the absolute diff in speed with the shooter of lasers, or the diff in speed with bullets. When he dodges, the ship will graphically do a quick barrel roll. Tractor beams prevent dodging.


Seer

Seer will gain more debuffing abilities, survivability, and also gain some sustained DPS.

  • Psionic Shrouding gives Seer 1-((visibility + 10) / 100) chance to avoid damage
  • Seer Skill gives -40% electric tempering
  • Seer Skill gives +100% damage on all weapons that have parasites (both actual weapon damage, and damage from the parasites)
  • Adding in new type of diffuser that reduces reflectivity
  • Adding in new augmenter stat that reduces reflectivity
  • Seer class super item that does electron clouds to help in bright galaxies
  • Adding in some augs (and possibly items) that reduce reflectivity


Berserker

No changes at this time.


Sniper

  • Reduce the time it takes to get full analysis to a third, and reduce the max bonus to a third.
  • Sniper analysis changes from a time thing, to a per-hit thing. When the sniper hits his target, he gains analysis equal to the recoil of his shot. If he targets and hits another target, any old analysis is cleared on previous targets. Hitting an untargeted ship does not effect analysis, nor does switching targets as long as the sniper doesn't shoot while he's targeting someone other than the target being analyzed.


Shield Monkey / Engineer

  • Hephaestus Machine: reduce energy resist to 40%. Change inbuilt elec from 200 to 150.


Fleet Commander

No change.


Gunner

Gunner gains more debuffing abilities and gains enormous ability to spew out damage in all directions. He should be able to do the most DPS in the game, but it will be untargeted DPS, in that it is spread to multiple targets simultaneously.

  • Gunner skill gives 100% multifiring at level 1, no incremental multifiring bonus. Slaves will also get 100% multifiring.
  • Missile Mastery also causes super items to charge 3x faster at level 20
  • Gunner gains automated targeting of 1 extra weapon per 2 levels of Gunner skill, starting at level 4. As long as gunner is holding down the fire key, the gunner will automatically cycle through hostile targets and shoot at targets in range of other weapons one at a time with the best non-selected weapon (or pair of weapons) that isn't currently on cooldown. Limit automated targeting to one extra attack per 300ms. Turret based firing gets 360 degree aiming. This does not use the currently selected weapon and does not shoot at the currently selected target. Each pair of weapons gets automatically assigned to one target by a targeting computer. Up to 8 weapons can be used simultaneously in addition to the two main guns for a total of 10.
  • Gunner gets -5% electric tempering per gun that that has fired in the last 5 seconds, with a maximum bonus of -50%
  • New class-locked debuffing super item missile that gives targets in an area -50% resistall
  • Class-locked debuffing super item that gives target -1000/s (?) energy that lasts for 3 seconds and takes 9 seconds (base) to charge
  • Adding several more weapon slots to most capital ships in the game so that gunner shouldn't have a problem getting at least 10 weapons on most ships he would want to use.
  • Any changes to missiles to be determined.


Note: Along with the nerf to overall Sniper DPS, several ubers, such as Zeus and his mini bosses, will have their max shields reduced.

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Thu May 30, 2013 3:27 am
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Post Re: Proposed Class Rebalance
JeffL wrote:
Speed Demon

Speed Demon will gain more DPS and survivability.

  • Change Speedy firing from +20% damage, +80% firing, to +60% damage, +60% firing.
  • Speedy Movement gains a "dodge" skill that scales with speed giving a ((speed diff+100) / 1000) chance to dodge all lasers and bullets. Speed diff is calculated as the absolute diff in speed with the shooter of lasers, or the diff in speed with bullets. When he dodges, the ship will graphically do a quick barrel roll. Tractor beams prevent dodging.

I would like to know what the barrel roll looks like. It sounds like the kind of graphical change to ships that can become an annoyance.


Seer

Seer will gain more debuffing abilities, survivability, and also gain some sustained DPS.

  • Psionic Shrouding gives Seer 1-((visibility + 10) / 100) chance to avoid damage
  • Seer Skill gives -40% electric tempering
  • Seer Skill gives +100% damage on all weapons that have parasites (both actual weapon damage, and damage from the parasites)
  • Adding in new type of diffuser that reduces reflectivity
  • Adding in new augmenter stat that reduces reflectivity
  • Seer class super item that does electron clouds to help in bright galaxies
  • Adding in some augs (and possibly items) that reduce reflectivity

Increased parasite strength to give Seers a role in PvAI is interesting. Recently a lot of people have invited you to see that Seers need more vision. I feel that you have forgotten this.

Berserker

No changes at this time.

I guess this is fine, as long as we get a proper berserker ship soon.

Sniper

  • Reduce the time it takes to get full analysis to a third, and reduce the max bonus to a third.
  • Sniper analysis changes from a time thing, to a per-hit thing. When the sniper hits his target, he gains analysis equal to the recoil of his shot. If he targets and hits another target, any old analysis is cleared on previous targets. Hitting an untargeted ship does not effect analysis, nor does switching targets as long as the sniper doesn't shoot while he's targeting someone other than the target being analyzed.

And if you have any bosses that are designed around the current max sniper analysis bonus damage output, then I hope you have remembered to rebalance these.

Shield Monkey / Engineer

  • Hephaestus Machine: reduce energy resist to 40%. Change inbuilt elec from 200 to 150.

I have no idea why you are listing the Hephaestus Machine under Shield Monkey/Engineer. This has nothing to do with the class itself. And without any further rebalance to shield monkeys, they will be rather unbalanced if the proposed super items goes in.

Fleet Commander

No change.

You could at least have adressed the problem with wild slaves. Why you haven't seen this as something that needs a rebalance is beyond me. And while I see Radiation Expert at something that is Serengeti-focused I fail to see how that is really going to give an edge in newer zones over using non-radiation damage type weapons.

Gunner

Gunner gains more debuffing abilities and gains enormous ability to spew out damage in all directions. He should be able to do the most DPS in the game, but it will be untargeted DPS, in that it is spread to multiple targets simultaneously.

  • Gunner skill gives 100% multifiring at level 1, no incremental multifiring bonus. Slaves will also get 100% multifiring.
  • Missile Mastery also causes super items to charge 3x faster at level 20
  • Gunner gains automated targeting of 1 extra weapon per 2 levels of Gunner skill, starting at level 4. As long as gunner is holding down the fire key, the gunner will automatically cycle through hostile targets and shoot at targets in range of other weapons one at a time with the best non-selected weapon (or pair of weapons) that isn't currently on cooldown. Limit automated targeting to one extra attack per 300ms. Turret based firing gets 360 degree aiming. This does not use the currently selected weapon and does not shoot at the currently selected target. Each pair of weapons gets automatically assigned to one target by a targeting computer. Up to 8 weapons can be used simultaneously in addition to the two main guns for a total of 10.
  • Gunner gets -5% electric tempering per gun that that has fired in the last 5 seconds, with a maximum bonus of -50%
  • New class-locked debuffing super item missile that gives targets in an area -50% resistall
  • Class-locked debuffing super item that gives target -1000/s (?) energy that lasts for 3 seconds and takes 9 seconds (base) to charge
  • Adding several more weapon slots to most capital ships in the game so that gunner shouldn't have a problem getting at least 10 weapons on most ships he would want to use.
  • Any changes to missiles to be determined.

Have you considered hull space usage on capital ships? Most weapons balanced and focused towards Gunners are insanely large. While this is an interesting change, you haven't even looked at all possible changes that this can mean for the class.


Note: Along with the nerf to overall Sniper DPS, several ubers, such as Zeus and his mini bosses, will have their max shields reduced.


Thu May 30, 2013 5:24 am
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Post Re: Proposed Class Rebalance
Another question I have is this: Tech 21 has been balanced based on the current class balance, will you consider rebalancing some Tech 21 content based on the proposed rebalance (if it passes)? And I assume Tech 22 has been balanced based on the current class balance as well, does this mean that Tech 22 will be rebalanced shortly after it was introduced (if this suggestion passes)?

Sometimes I wonder why we have to ask for information like this.


Thu May 30, 2013 5:32 am
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Post Re: Proposed Class Rebalance
God knows how kids runs will be done now then if you have to shoot it to gain analysis. Steril cannon poking to gain anal seems a bit silly. Not really analysis any more, more like poke bonus .

Totally love the sd change although crit based set ups going to suffer with less rof

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Thu May 30, 2013 6:46 am
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Post Re: Proposed Class Rebalance
sabre198 wrote:
God knows how kids runs will be done now then if you have to shoot it to gain analysis. Steril cannon poking to gain anal seems a bit silly. Not really analysis any more, more like poke bonus .

Totally love the sd change although crit based set ups going to suffer with less rof


Which is a good thing. Crits are supposed to be special and unexpected. Right now they're just "oh look I crit half the time", which imo, is dumb.

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Thu May 30, 2013 7:20 am
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Post Re: Proposed Class Rebalance
Regarding Kidd - just tank him, like a normal boss.

On the suggestions:
If a SD, with max speed diff, is shot with a max RoF weapon... will this mean the SD will do constant barrel rolls? The whole idea sounds epicly awesome to me, but I'm also worried that it can become an annoyance.

Seers are already way more energy efficient than zerk, sniper (with analysis) and SD. If you use a proper combat ship energy (such as ZOE) you can sustain pretty much everything. I suppose it makes sense to add some -elec temp if seer DPS will be more parasite based, which means you'll want really high ROF, but there's no need to over-do it. People can start auging with -elec temp weapons, like the other combat classes.

Absolutely love the suggested sniper analysis change!

Gunner suggestion almost made me faint. It's too much awesomeness for my mind to process, so good thing there are cynical bastards like Thermal who come down on everything.

Regarding all dps-oriented suggestions, hopefully this will be on test for quite some time, so people can try to break the actual numbers, so everything is in proportion by the time it goes live.

All in all, it sounds like this would definately make SS combat more diverse. I love the general direction of these suggestions, even if I'm sure Thermal-like people can propose improvements on the details.

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Thu May 30, 2013 7:37 am
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Post Re: Proposed Class Rebalance
I love sniper change ;] might actually resub to test it out ;D

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Thu May 30, 2013 7:56 am
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Post Re: Proposed Class Rebalance
SD:
-Please make the barrel roll only proc once every few seconds, even if more dodging takes place.

Seer:
-The elec temp bonus might be too high. Requires playtesting.
-The general idea that Seers will be rewarded for using low vis gear is good. However, most seers are well under 10 vis which means that you are proposing to give them an 80% chance to dodge. Increasing a class's effective tanking by a factor of 5 is a bit too much. I propose to change the formula to 1 - (vis+10)/10 or even less.
-The Visibility augmod already affects detection distance so the only new thing a Reflectivity augmod would do is affect the amount of vis added by suns. Why not change the word Visibility to Stealth and make the single augmod affect both detection+vision distance, and also sun-based visibility? That seems more elegant to me since we only have 4 aug slots to work with and the current -Vis augs are already quite nice. Sun visibility is too situational for anyone to waste an aug slot on it.

Gunner:
-Make sure current ships can actually fit all the weapons and super items you want them to be able to use.
-The elec temp bonus needs playtesting.

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Thu May 30, 2013 10:16 am
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Post Re: Proposed Class Rebalance
anilv wrote:
Seer:
-The general idea that Seers will be rewarded for using low vis gear is good. However, most seers are well under 10 vis which means that you are proposing to give them an 80% chance to dodge. Increasing a class's effective tanking by a factor of 5 is a bit too much. I propose to change the formula to 1 - (vis+10)/10 or even less.


Maybe 80% to dodge if they are not thrusting and not firing and not tractoring. It's basically to give them immunity to environmental damage to somewhat match their stealth when an individual enemy wouldn't be seeing them anyway.

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Thu May 30, 2013 11:14 am
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Post Re: Proposed Class Rebalance
it all sounds pretty good, but i'd give beserker a strong inbuilt resistance to crits (80-98%)

its not analysis which screws over beserkers when they fight snipers, its the crits which force your ship to turn. they arent such a problem when you have an inertial damp, but the cost and hullspace used is a big issue for mid level beserkers, and the crits+pushback makes it virtually impossible to beat a sniper of the same level.


Thu May 30, 2013 11:25 am
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Post Re: Proposed Class Rebalance
As a second-rate Seer who really just steals Scy's gear to be good I'll have to agree that 40% -temp is a bit much. As awesome as that would be it just allows people who aug for almost 0 sustain to be able to really power some high DPS stuff. Like Scy said, if a Seer wants to sustain he can aug for it like all the other classes need to. Remember the class currently has 0 in the way of energy support so a straight 40% increase is huge also considering almost no common Seer augs contain -temp. I really like that dodge chance though, will need testing but your thoughts of avoiding things like collision code are awesome as that is currently a death writ.

Concerning Zerker, bit disappointed this rebalance did not change the Wattage to be Zerker friendly considering the Heph Machine was changed for ShM/Engi in your view.

FC, what Thermal said. The class is falling behind right now due to their t18 max slaves/augs and lack of any effective fighters besides holiday ones. He also made a very valid point about Radiation being their main damage type. We used to be able to easily solo everything but KKK before the resist increase, now the class is just meh for anything but an aura boat.

The Sniper change combined with boss shield reduction makes me pretty happy. That is going to really hurt my ability to solo zones easily but it is best for the game. The change so Analysis won't be voided just for switching targets is also pretty nice.

As cool as the Gunner change sounds I am going to hold my breath on it. You mention that missiles changes might be forthcoming and I sure hope so. If Gunner will now do as much DPS as you make me believe then the last thing we need is to give them a further 100k~ DPS in focused missiles that come from 20 levels in a skill and 1m from a base.

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Thu May 30, 2013 11:41 am
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Post Re: Proposed Class Rebalance
JeffL wrote:

Seer

Seer will gain more debuffing abilities, survivability, and also gain some sustained DPS.

  • Psionic Shrouding gives Seer 1-((visibility + 10) / 100) chance to avoid damage
    As enkelin said, it is quite easy to go below 10 vis (or below 1 when you factor in cloaks) so that would be a massive dodge bonus.
  • Seer Skill gives -40% electric tempering
    -40% elec tempering would be a crazy amount. With no energy recharge or tempering affecting augs, I power decently already. I'm not against -tempering at all, but maybe a bit less.
  • Seer Skill gives +100% damage on all weapons that have parasites (both actual weapon damage, and damage from the parasites)
    Does that include healing parasites? Please make healing seers possible!
  • Adding in new type of diffuser that reduces reflectivity
  • Adding in new augmenter stat that reduces reflectivity
    -Visiblity already affects detection distance. Would the new stat affect it as well or just enviroment visiblity?
  • Seer class super item that does electron clouds to help in bright galaxies
    I'm not sure how useful that would be unless it has significant range
  • Adding in some augs (and possibly items) that reduce reflectivity


Some other things to consider: Resistance to negative aura effects, Resistance penetration, more warp devices, i.e. (cheaper) PWI that teleports you backwards. Superitem that gives information about the target's shield strength/resistance?

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Thu May 30, 2013 11:53 am
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Post Re: Proposed Class Rebalance
If a recon focus dodge procs, does that mean that any critical hit effects are not applied? Does it mean that diffusers don't get a chance to break?

Also, instead of Seventh Sense simply giving a breakable diffuser (boring), how about instead it mitigates catastrophic damage: any damage taken while active cannot do more than 10% of the Seer's total shield bank.

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Thu May 30, 2013 12:04 pm
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Post Re: Proposed Class Rebalance
I might start liking SD more then Zerk :shock:

Sucks that zerk is yet again forgot about. More resist more hostility more damage, more something or less something, or anything! Someone mentioned the idea of having zerk Mf 3 instead of 5 before and just add more damage to class to balance out the loss of 2 weps. Thats a pretty decent idea. I also really really liked the idea of giving the class inertia dampening and - turning? Also the whole auto targeting to multipole targets that gunner gets would be epic for a zerk maybe have a way to control it for zerk though?

Sniper change sucks! :lol: I like killing things quick, however if every or most uber in game shield bank and regain is looked into then the change is good.. actually great change regardless now that i think about it.

Gunner change is epic, but cant every class get auto targeting that is ridiculously usefull!

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Thu May 30, 2013 12:19 pm
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Post Re: Proposed Class Rebalance
Pretty much all this does is makes speed demon the most op pvp class in the game, makes kidd significantly harder for people who don't have prawn snipers, gives an unnecessary nerf to the heph machine (in a damage type that is only significant to pvai and pvp), and no real changes to the Fleet Focus class which it is in dire need of updating (and yes im talking about the radiation and mining damage type bonuses to the class which are completely and utterly pointless.)

Yet again JeffL's ideas take precedence over what the player base has been suggesting over the course of 2 years. Shall I make a list of more important changes to class skills? Cause ill be here all day.

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Last edited by potato8 on Thu May 30, 2013 6:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Thu May 30, 2013 12:53 pm
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