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Post Re: Proposed Class Rebalance
Tomzta09 wrote:
Primus wrote:
Quote:
I do believe that classes need rebalancing. This suggestion is nothing like what we need though.


Opinions are like asses, everyone has one. Leave it up to the players and a rebalance is never going to happen.


Of course they will happen, when the developers actually play the classes properly for a few months, maybe a year and then come together with some of us, and discuss a real rebalance, or just one focus at a time, then they will get more people on their side. Just proposing a load of bullcrap is not going to happen. Most people saw Sniper, saw it was getting something done to it didnt even stop to think for a second about it and just voted up. Also id you think everyone who voted down was just because of sniper, sorry but you have something wrong with you. Preter has the general idea of what really needs adding in,but seers and SDs need some kind of hull bonus for DGing, I thought it'd be a good idea to give all classes the hull bonus when equipping items, the way combat classes do. When I said zerks needed a beef, I meant to lose the -speed and give it inertia dampening or -elec tempering.


The class suggestions for both seer and SD look really good, it would be more beneficial for these changes to be implemented rather than just adding a hull bonus (which can be overcome through the use of scoop slaves).


Fri Jun 07, 2013 5:15 am
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Post Re: Proposed Class Rebalance
Voom said it best, very few two people will ever agree on specific stats. I personally think Zerker is 100% fine with the possibility of removing the -speed, hostility and everything else is A. Ok, you get what you aug for. Same with Seer, the class already has plenty of opportunities to obtain Crit Hit Chance. You cannot give a class meant to do extreme Crit Damage the ability to land those easily, it is just a trade off and as Jeff said, you get a huge bonus when attacking from stealth. The only reason I could see adding Crit Chance would be for low level Seers who get that +60% passive chance so no real need.

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Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:56 am
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Post Re: Proposed Class Rebalance
Tomzta09 wrote:
syberian wrote:
Tommeh, you lied to me about every time you wanted something, so what's the big deal? Don't lie if you don't want to be called like that >.>


Like what? I never lied to you about anything.

First example up back when almost nobody did ID but us. I got DarkWO and you wanted to try it out and bothered me on pm. You said that you had dark immo building and would let me try it later, then after a week or so you denied that.
That's the first thing that came to my mind.
There were also other minor ones, but I can't recall them atm, so nvm.

Also, sorry guys for spamming thread.

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Fri Jun 07, 2013 12:07 pm
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Post Re: Proposed Class Rebalance
Quote:
Seer is fine

No, Seer isn't.
ENDGAME Seer is pretty close, but thinking of t18 below... if gou dont have every level of the class in mind, then you aren't getting the whole picture.

Quote:
Seer and SD need hull bonuses

Ah, yes! Thankyou for reminding me. A few weeks back i had an idea to give them about 10% ish more hull ... but supplement it with a good -75% hull to unequipped items that aren't weapons. Suddenly that 164 hull for dg loot is a lot better. While originally i wouldve liked to have had weapons included<since most good dg drops are weapons>, the ability to carry that many AND an annoying as fuck CAD is a little OP.

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Fri Jun 07, 2013 1:32 pm
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Post Re: Proposed Class Rebalance
syberian wrote:
Tomzta09 wrote:
syberian wrote:
Tommeh, you lied to me about every time you wanted something, so what's the big deal? Don't lie if you don't want to be called like that >.>


Like what? I never lied to you about anything.

First example up back when almost nobody did ID but us. I got DarkWO and you wanted to try it out and bothered me on pm. You said that you had dark immo building and would let me try it later, then after a week or so you denied that.
That's the first thing that came to my mind.
There were also other minor ones, but I can't recall them atm, so nvm.

Also, sorry guys for spamming thread.


That is not what happened, I told you how to do them in return you let me play about with it for awhile. If I had one building, why would you want to mess around with that one if you already had one yourself? >.>

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Fri Jun 07, 2013 3:30 pm
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Post Re: Proposed Class Rebalance
Tomzta09 wrote:
That is not what happened, I told you how to do them in return you let me play about with it for awhile. If I had one building, why would you want to mess around with that one if you already had one yourself? >.>


I already knew how to do them at that time, that's the first thing.

2nd thing, "I told you how to do them", I figured how to do kobold and proper way to do diablo and shared that info with you. I could also do maelstrom, but I wouldn't call it any tactic, just sheer dps and luck.

The only thing you shared with me was a way to do scorch, your way of doing diablo was extremely ineffective and you couldn't scoop loot, unless you were really lucky.
So saying now that you told me how to do them is quite inaccurate, given that I only learnt how to do 1 out of 4 bosses from you.

Besides I got DarkWO from Dark Scorch, are you trying to say that I first had gotten DarkWO from scorch, then lend it to you in return for info how to do Scorch?

And the last thing, I think you must have misread, but I wrote about Dark Immolation you said you were building.

Anyway
No hard feelings, I shouldn't have called you like that and I guess we should stop spamming this thread.

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Fri Jun 07, 2013 4:35 pm
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Post Re: Proposed Class Rebalance
Primus wrote:
It's pretty safe to assume at this point that the class rebalance isnt going to happen at this point even though it should.

Every single dev and admin agree's that a class rebalance is needed and yet it's put up for the players to vote on it?
A class rebalance WILL happen, even if the players vote no, the suggestion might get changed a little but it will be up for voting until the playerbase votes yes. Unless the admins decide to just do it without voting. Which imo is exactly what they should do, just take it out of the voting list and do it.

Going by this thread only it looks to me like the majority of the players who have left feedback approves of the suggested class rebalance, yet it's being completely downvoted.
The people who downvote doesnt seem to leave all that much feedback, Im guessing the nr. 1 reason to vote no is "I like my OP sniper".

So I would suggest that they either just remove the whole class rebalance vote and do it all anyway or they remove the vote from this round and atleast do the nice things from the suggestion like SD, Seer and Gunner.
Then a discussion can be started about Sniper to see why people are against the suggested nerf.

Pisses me off that the awesome Gunner change will be delayed several months just because some players dont want their OP sniper nerfed. Especially since it's going to happen anyway, it's just a question of when.


I myself remarked to you some time ago on how futile it would be to put this up to the players for voting. However, I do have several reservations about this suggestion. In particular, the stuff with Seer is not well thought out, as I have pointed out several times in this thread.

While I like the change that would require Snipers to keep hitting their target to gain analysis, the rather extreme reduction in Sniper DPS will have a huge effect on PvB and some boss fights (Captain Kidd, for example). The last time the source of the Prawn BP was made harder to kill, it was a matter of much controversy. Are you sure you want to go down that route again? Also, with this change Berserkers and Gunners can nearly match Sniper damage output against bases, while both being much tankier. It just seems that that 1/3 analysis number was pulled out of a hat instead of there being any real effort to investigate whether that will leave Sniper well balanced compared to other classes.

I know Jeff is fond of just adding up all the class bonuses and seeing how the numbers look compared to each other, but to really balance the classes properly you need to take many more things into account. Not the least of these is the fact that Gunners can achieve their DPS while augging for pure tanking; that Berserkers can survive over 50% more incoming damage (can make all the difference in PvB); and that Snipers would need to actually stay alive and hitting their target for minutes on end before they can start matching Berserker DPS.

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Fri Jun 07, 2013 9:56 pm
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Post Re: Proposed Class Rebalance
For Seer:

I think there is alot more equipped items and especially weapons if you want a nicely balanced class, you should give -% for all equipped things. That should leave room for DG loot or cool other gear.

-% for all equipped things for seer

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Sat Jun 08, 2013 1:46 am
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Post Re: Proposed Class Rebalance
Quote:
with this change Berserkers and Gunners can nearly match Sniper damage output against bases, while both being much tankier


Berserker and Gunner should match Sniper damage against anything. Sniper has stealth and range to keep them alive while Berserker has resists, the new Gunner skill will have very high DPS but will be unable to focus it all on one target.


Sat Jun 08, 2013 2:18 am
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Post Re: Proposed Class Rebalance
Primus wrote:
Quote:
with this change Berserkers and Gunners can nearly match Sniper damage output against bases, while both being much tankier


Berserker and Gunner should match Sniper damage against anything. Sniper has stealth and range to keep them alive while Berserker has resists, the new Gunner skill will have very high DPS but will be unable to focus it all on one target.


Stealth is irrelevant in Captain Kidd and several other bosses.

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Sat Jun 08, 2013 4:45 am
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Post Re: Proposed Class Rebalance
Tomzta09 wrote:
Stealth is irrelevant in Captain Kidd and several other bosses.


Stealth should be more relevant to Star Sonata. Go play The Elder Scrolls: Skyrim. You can incorporate stealth into every playstyle should you choose, and it works well.


Sat Jun 08, 2013 6:43 am
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Post Re: Proposed Class Rebalance
Max235 wrote:
Tomzta09 wrote:
Stealth is irrelevant in Captain Kidd and several other bosses.


Stealth should be more relevant to Star Sonata. Go play The Elder Scrolls: Skyrim. You can incorporate stealth into every playstyle should you choose, and it works well.


Quite an important point.
Last time I used stealth was when I was in a space blue gamma with a gamma aug.
And even then it only worked when I was nearly at my max range and not near any hot suns.
Edit: Although I did once fight a sniper in colo with that setup. Successfully, as he couldn't see me when out of my range.


Sat Jun 08, 2013 8:46 am
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Post Re: Proposed Class Rebalance
Primus wrote:
Quote:
with this change Berserkers and Gunners can nearly match Sniper damage output against bases, while both being much tankier


Berserker and Gunner should match Sniper damage against anything. Sniper has stealth and range to keep them alive while Berserker has resists, the new Gunner skill will have very high DPS but will be unable to focus it all on one target.


And how exactly are range and stealth supposed to help in a squad-based engagement? It is funny to see this argument coming from you as you have been one of the most notorious for adding content with AI that have thousands of range with full tracking beams, and guards with INFINITE radar.

To be fair, you also made these bosses completely ignore the standard aggro code which makes Berserker tanking totally useless. So thumbs up for equal-opportunity circumvention of basic combat class properties.

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Sat Jun 08, 2013 9:31 am
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Post Re: Proposed Class Rebalance
anilv wrote:
Primus wrote:
Quote:
with this change Berserkers and Gunners can nearly match Sniper damage output against bases, while both being much tankier


Berserker and Gunner should match Sniper damage against anything. Sniper has stealth and range to keep them alive while Berserker has resists, the new Gunner skill will have very high DPS but will be unable to focus it all on one target.


And how exactly are range and stealth supposed to help in a squad-based engagement? It is funny to see this argument coming from you as you have been one of the most notorious for adding content with AI that have thousands of range with full tracking beams, and guards with INFINITE radar.

To be fair, you also made these bosses completely ignore the standard aggro code which makes Berserker tanking totally useless. So thumbs up for equal-opportunity circumvention of basic combat class properties.


That pretty much says it all.

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Sat Jun 08, 2013 10:38 am
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Post Re: Proposed Class Rebalance
anilv wrote:
And how exactly are range and stealth supposed to help in a squad-based engagement?


In a squad-based engagement the sniper isnt meant to be the agro holder.

When kiting, which many snipers do, range also helps a lot. And stealth helps a lot when you sit afk to charge your analysis.

Stealth and range works extremely well when playing solo. You can also aug your ship for pure DPS and have Shms keep you alive.

Quote:
It is funny to see this argument coming from you as you have been one of the most notorious for adding content with AI that have thousands of range with full tracking beams, and guards with INFINITE radar.

To be fair, you also made these bosses completely ignore the standard aggro code which makes Berserker tanking totally useless. So thumbs up for equal-opportunity circumvention of basic combat class properties.


That would be the Mausoleum bosses. They were made that way to prevent overpowered Snipers from soloing them.
The random agro was an attempt to make something different, which I have admitted didnt work out well and it's on Blue Dwarfs list of things to change.

My arguments arent any less valid because of this.

What I find more funny is watching you (enkelin) when you switch between Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. Sometimes you are very nice, polite and helpful, other times you are mean, rude and insulting. It always surprises me because someone of your intelligence doesnt need to be insulting to get your point across.


Sat Jun 08, 2013 11:11 am
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