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Post Re: Proposed Class Rebalance
anilv wrote:
I propose that Sniper analysis be made to charge up to 50% of its current stats, over the course of 3 minutes. Must be hitting the target to charge, as stated.


Even with the proposed change to sniper, they are still theoretically doing far more sustained damage than any other class, with nearly as much burst damage as almost all others.

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Sat Jun 01, 2013 12:06 am
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Post Re: Proposed Class Rebalance
Russell wrote:
the class most needing a change. Get rid of the requirement to hold 5 of each weapon in order to MF them, get rid of the speed nerf. As a solo class it is the most useless class in the game.


I was lobbying for a change to zerker where they lost some of their resists, but also lost all the speed nerf and gained major inertial dampening, but I was shouted down pretty resoundingly. I actually would really like to get rid of the zerker speed nerf, but feel like zerker is one of the best classes, with both great defense and offense, so feel like if they lose the speed nerf, they should also be nerfed in some other way as compensation.

Russell wrote:
A normal sniper depends on stealth. The change in analysis from time to hits will make them too visible.
This change is ideal for SD but not for sniper.


Analysis was never intended for a stealthy sniper to sit there hidden and then burst out with a ton of damage. It was intended to make the snipers power grow with time in big epic boss fights. I think the proposed change goes along well with that.

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Sat Jun 01, 2013 12:14 am
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Post Re: Proposed Class Rebalance
JeffL wrote:
I was lobbying for a change to zerker where they lost some of their resists, but also lost all the speed nerf and gained major inertial dampening, but I was shouted down pretty resoundingly. I actually would really like to get rid of the zerker speed nerf, but feel like zerker is one of the best classes, with both great defense and offense, so feel like if they lose the speed nerf, they should also be nerfed in some other way as compensation.


I'll lobby a bit as well then. Would it be possible to remove their speed penalty if the energy bonus from the Ordinance Supremacy was halved, or removed?

And why would we need major inertial dampening when we have capacitors that works on 99/100 ships (Watt Capacitor being the issue here) and gives -80% inertia dampening, which is more than enough for current content (even tho some Aveksakan side effects seems to be made to be impossible to circumvent).

Intertia Dampeners are amazing. The Stationary Principle on the Flamberge is an example of how it should be done.

So for me a few easy steps (three of them) towards fixing the berserker class would be to:

1. Revamp the Watt Capacitor and make it more like the Stationary Principle
2. Balance out berserker class for solo play
3. Look into why it has become almost mandatory to use a hilarious amount of *(evil) gear on your ship, even tho the gear piece isn't used for anything (like my berserker having a set of Vazaha Re-structrons* (Evil) (transference weapon, wtf?) on his ship to be able to work properly in squad play, but he never uses the transference weapons for anything). And then give the berserkers a purchasable super special secondary or tweak generator (from Lyceum) that gives them a tweak with +50% hostility and -20% speed for 300 seconds. Negative speed isn't a bad thing when you are already sitting where you want to sit.

Berserker class for me is enjoyable when you...

... don't end up as a bouncing ball in squad play - you are somewhat stationary and heavy
... are able to draw the attention of most AI to you as you wish - in a matter of seconds
... are the focus of attention and you staying alive is something the entire group relies on
... can make a solo-oriented setup in a fast heavy fighter that can fire more than one laser at once (Zebra with 3 Jiji Quu looks amazing).


Sat Jun 01, 2013 12:33 am
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Post Re: Proposed Class Rebalance
JeffL wrote:
Chaosking3 wrote:
FC, what Thermal said. The class is falling behind right now due to their t18 max slaves/augs and lack of any effective fighters besides holiday ones. He also made a very valid point about Radiation being their main damage type. We used to be able to easily solo everything but KKK before the resist increase, now the class is just meh for anything but an aura boat.


Possibly. Jey seems to think FC is plenty powerful enough, but I think he might be biased by his own awesomeness. We're talking about adding in RC 19. If we do that (and it seems like we probably should), then that should help FC a bit.


Please think of fighters. If you are going to work on reducing missile spam then make more fighters viable.

Specializing in fighter power would be awesome, even if its at the cost of slave power via an aug. Buildable fighter gens with long cooldown times, or super special fighter gens. Perhaps youd have to build crates of fighter parts and materials onboard, much like a gunner has missile crates, etc.

Fighters seem to be an untapped resource for the future of this game. Please don't overlook them.

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Sat Jun 01, 2013 12:55 am
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Post Re: Proposed Class Rebalance
ExArchon wrote:
JeffL wrote:
Chaosking3 wrote:
FC, what Thermal said. The class is falling behind right now due to their t18 max slaves/augs and lack of any effective fighters besides holiday ones. He also made a very valid point about Radiation being their main damage type. We used to be able to easily solo everything but KKK before the resist increase, now the class is just meh for anything but an aura boat.


Possibly. Jey seems to think FC is plenty powerful enough, but I think he might be biased by his own awesomeness. We're talking about adding in RC 19. If we do that (and it seems like we probably should), then that should help FC a bit.


Dark Brotherhood aka. Thermal wrote:
You could at least have adressed the problem with wild slaves. Why you haven't seen this as something that needs a rebalance is beyond me. And while I see Radiation Expert at something that is Serengeti-focused I fail to see how that is really going to give an edge in newer zones over using non-radiation damage type weapons.


Remote Control 19 does not adress the major flaws in the class skill itself. Jey has endless amounts of tweaks, access to any item in game he wants, and therefore he isn't comparable to other players. What do you feel about Wild Slaves (nobody uses them at all) and Radiation Expert Jeff? While FC is powerful with slave mastery only, it doesn't justify that two of the class skills are outdated.


Sat Jun 01, 2013 1:17 am
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Post Re: Proposed Class Rebalance
JeffL wrote:

I was lobbying for a change to zerker where they lost some of their resists, but also lost all the speed nerf and gained major inertial dampening, but I was shouted down pretty resoundingly. I actually would really like to get rid of the zerker speed nerf, but feel like zerker is one of the best classes, with both great defense and offense, so feel like if they lose the speed nerf, they should also be nerfed in some other way as compensation.


No, a tank class is based round its ability to tank and drawn aggro. Who cares about speed, you cant go any faster than your shm anyway. There are speedy zerk setups (old now i know speed zerk juju with a hera is a viable option for solo dging I know because me and a player called Matlin used to use it a lot to level our zerks)

Id hate to see resists dropped for inertial dampening because thats a minor tank ability for a major one, and can be gained by capacitor use if you like. If you upped its aggro abilities then its dps can come down. After all the tank only needs to generate enough DPS to draw the aggro, if you do that with hate multipliers it doesnt need to be through DPS.


Sat Jun 01, 2013 1:57 am
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Post Re: Proposed Class Rebalance
As a zerk i really don't mind the negative speed burst at all. Can't think of any situation i would need more speed on my zerk, but then again i always have a monk with me. Someone suggested that zerk dps goes up significantly when there Shields are low. I would much rather that then more speed. As a matter of fact i wouldn't mind less speed if we got that.

More hostility from skills would be nice, then it wouldn't be absolutely necessary to spend countless bills on evil gear.

Most importantly of all DON'T NERF RESIST.

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Sat Jun 01, 2013 2:10 am
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Post Re: Proposed Class Rebalance
Dark Brotherhood wrote:
JeffL wrote:
I was lobbying for a change to zerker where they lost some of their resists, but also lost all the speed nerf and gained major inertial dampening, but I was shouted down pretty resoundingly. I actually would really like to get rid of the zerker speed nerf, but feel like zerker is one of the best classes, with both great defense and offense, so feel like if they lose the speed nerf, they should also be nerfed in some other way as compensation.


I'll lobby a bit as well then. Would it be possible to remove their speed penalty if the energy bonus from the Ordinance Supremacy was halved, or removed?

And why would we need major inertial dampening when we have capacitors that works on 99/100 ships (Watt Capacitor being the issue here) and gives -80% inertia dampening, which is more than enough for current content (even tho some Aveksakan side effects seems to be made to be impossible to circumvent).

Intertia Dampeners are amazing. The Stationary Principle on the Flamberge is an example of how it should be done.

So for me a few easy steps (three of them) towards fixing the berserker class would be to:

1. Revamp the Watt Capacitor and make it more like the Stationary Principle
2. Balance out berserker class for solo play
3. Look into why it has become almost mandatory to use a hilarious amount of *(evil) gear on your ship, even tho the gear piece isn't used for anything (like my berserker having a set of Vazaha Re-structrons* (Evil) (transference weapon, wtf?) on his ship to be able to work properly in squad play, but he never uses the transference weapons for anything). And then give the berserkers a purchasable super special secondary or tweak generator (from Lyceum) that gives them a tweak with +50% hostility and -20% speed for 300 seconds. Negative speed isn't a bad thing when you are already sitting where you want to sit.

Berserker class for me is enjoyable when you...

... don't end up as a bouncing ball in squad play - you are somewhat stationary and heavy
... are able to draw the attention of most AI to you as you wish - in a matter of seconds
... are the focus of attention and you staying alive is something the entire group relies on
... can make a solo-oriented setup in a fast heavy fighter that can fire more than one laser at once (Zebra with 3 Jiji Quu looks amazing).


Agreed


Sat Jun 01, 2013 2:52 am
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Post Re: Proposed Class Rebalance
redalert150 wrote:
As a zerk i really don't mind the negative speed burst at all. Can't think of any situation i would need more speed on my zerk, but then again i always have a monk with me. Someone suggested that zerk dps goes up significantly when there Shields are low. I would much rather that then more speed. As a matter of fact i wouldn't mind less speed if we got that.

More hostility from skills would be nice, then it wouldn't be absolutely necessary to spend countless bills on evil gear.

Most importantly of all DON'T NERF RESIST.


That is precisely the point. Zerkers really have little ability to solo anything.
To solo stuff you need either :
Enough resists to tank a 8 AI, or
Speed to outrun the AI and bring them to combat on your terms, or
Stealth to selectively engage AI, or
Enough DPS to kill all the AI before they kill you.


Currently zerkers do not have any of the above.

Thus they Cannot SOLO and must rely on a ShM to heal them

(Tried healing drones but with the lack of hull due to having to carry 5 weapons per damage type and the lack of drone bonuses that was a total failure)

Top Buzz mentioned a solo sniper but that was a long time ago and in a very different environment.
I have a speedy zebra but the comprimises I had to make to get even a modicum of speed mean it is limited to killing the sort of AI that give no experiene.


Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:13 am
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Post Re: Proposed Class Rebalance
You either need to tank long enough to kill everything, range+speed+agility to kite, stealth and backstabs, or really overwhelming DPS so your enemies melt. Berserker in terms of soloing, has a very sub par tank, poor range, no speed, almost always visible, and pretty bad DPS if you try to increase the other stats. Not to mention very shitty hull until you can get a Prawn.

It is a very sad class. These are the reasons why even Seer outnumbers solo Zerks by a factor of 10:1.


Last edited by Max235 on Sat Jun 01, 2013 4:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:45 am
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Post Re: Proposed Class Rebalance
I can clear almost any dg room with my zerk by tanking. It just takes 2 days to regain enough to do the next room...

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Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:57 am
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Post Re: Proposed Class Rebalance
Jeff, I am not sure RC19 would really help FC all that much. The available t19 ships and augs are really not that hot compared to t18. A really cool idea that has been bouncing around for awhile was to created t18 ships that require higher piloting (like P21/22) to use. These ships could be given a slave only tag and there could be t18(P21/22) augs to go with them that have an unpilotable tag as well. This just seems like a very easy and balanced way to scale slaves into future power levels on demand with out unbalancing a tech far below the new ones for players.

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Sat Jun 01, 2013 10:32 am
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Post Re: Proposed Class Rebalance
JeffL wrote:
longname wrote:
-Visiblity already affects detection distance. Would the new stat affect it as well or just enviroment visiblity?


-Visibility affects overall visibility. -reflectivity will affect the visibility increase/decrease from suns. This stat will help Seers be stealthy in galaxies with bright suns at the expense of a loss in gain from dark suns, but it won't affect their visibility from gear, firing, thrust, or hull.


The current Visibility augmod affects both emissive visibility and detection distance (yes I've tested it). The proposed augmod that reduces ship reflectivity will reduce reflective visibility and also reduce detection distance. There are already tons of indispensable augmenters for Seer that have Visibility augmods. No one is going to waste an aug slot on the new augmod, whose advantage over Visibility is purely situational, unless you make copies of all or most augs with the Vis augmod replaced by the new augmod. The obviously better solution is to make the Visibility augmod also reduce reflective visibility.

Also, nothing affects the visibility from thrust (and possibly firing? haven't tested that).

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Sat Jun 01, 2013 11:25 am
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Post Re: Proposed Class Rebalance
Next time you think of removing Zerkers -speed stat and nerf its resists stats, just slap your self and think of other things. Zerker does not need inertial damp in its class skills at all, just needs more aggro generating.

Also for peeps that seem to suck as a solo Zerker dging, Use a Rosy or best a Zebra and with push tractor and proper augs and gear for kite, you can easy get high dps, long range, fast speed, high shield regen, with enough hull to scoop a tech 20 base kit and take almost 0 damage each room you do unless its a wattage or vulture room. I lvled 1k times from lvl 700 to 1.7k solo dging over 3 weeks free time, and kill times is faster than sniper dging but just tiny bit slower then a SD dging.

Also with SA being a hit target sort of thing pvp with stealth snipers vs visable snipers aka prawn, prawns are getting a stronger advantage as before it was a more ballanced fight.

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Sat Jun 01, 2013 1:47 pm
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Post Re: Proposed Class Rebalance
Perhaps this is a side issue but personally I like the class names to give an indication of the type of class it is.

A typical Viking Berzerker was a light mobile fighter, very agile and a high DPS.

Not at all like the attributes of the SS Berserker.

A Sniper relies on stealth and precision marksmanship. A high vis sniper is a contradiction in terms.

It has to be a bit confusing to a knowledgeable new player, it still is for me.


Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:32 pm
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