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Post Begining of the Game
So i suggested this a while back and the devs said they would really look into after the class rebalance. Seeing how the class rebalance was a huge success and now caly is working on early game i thought it would be a great time to revitalize this suggestion.

First of all i would like to suggest that new players start with a class skill right off the bat. For example, lvl 1 in a Focus Skill lvl 1 in a Class skill and the option to choose one Tertiary Skill. With how the current skills are now though it wouldnt really be to noticeable if you were to choose to go SD or sniper or any of the classes for that matter. So i think it would be great if at lvl 1 of each Focus, Class and Tertiary Skill you get a huge bonus. Something like 30-40% of the current bonus you get from having them maxed out.

Of course they would have diminishing effect as you start training them more and more. Until it eventually even outs at the end game to be exactly the same as it is now. The end game is all about little tiny bonuses here and there anyways. As for the skill point issue, after 2kish or so we have more skill points then we know what to do with. Giving players a few free skills at the beginning of the game is really no issue at all.

Also, i suggest that as soon as a player starts SS he is first asked what class he would like to play. There would be a short summary and perhpas even some short videos(even a link to a video on the SS site would be pretty cool to have) on what each class is capable of. Depending on what class they choose they get a different ship(i believe devs are already working on this). It would be great if they could also choose between a few different minor aug setups. All final stats of each ship and aug setup would also be shown to them(i think devs are also working on something similar to this). If this suggestion doesnt give you a erection my friend, then your probably a girl.

Id be willing to do all the math for you guys so the skills are balanced enough. I would also be willing to make some kick ass videos for each class, except SD cause im terrible at SD...

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Thu May 08, 2014 11:24 pm
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Post Re: Begining of the Game
Bump for vert!

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Mon May 26, 2014 4:04 am
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Post Re: Begining of the Game
/signed except they should also condense the classes into 5 or so levels. Everyone starts with level 1 or whatever, and you unlock higher levels either through certain content or just by leveling up (equivalent of 21 at 1k, 22 at 1.5k or 2k?). Who cares if noobs get +20% RoF or whatever from the first new level, right? The early game sure doesn't need to get harder.

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Mon May 26, 2014 4:37 am
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Post Re: Begining of the Game
We have been discussing this exact idea for some time now, and I will keep you updated if we make any decisions on it :)

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Mon May 26, 2014 4:44 am
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Post Re: Begining of the Game
The latest thinking on this is that we give the player a choice of three non-sticky super items for "starting loadout" which roughly correspond to recon, combat, and support classes. The player would also get a built in skin to his zebucart, so that if two people start at the same time and choose different loadouts, then they will also look visually different. The super item can be taken from ship to ship as the player upgrades, and give a feel for that class, without locking him in from the very beginning.

There's also an alternative proposal on the back burner to do a really big overhaul to the way classes work such that they don't take skill points and are instead unlocked as you level up. If we ever decided to do that, then we'd be much more inclined to outright give a class at the very beginning.

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Mon Jun 02, 2014 4:19 pm
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Post Re: Begining of the Game
The super item idea and different skin is pretty nice. Everyone loves customizing their character your only going to attract more players if you give us more customization of our ships.

I personally think "locking" someone in from the beginning to a class is more fun then having no class, its going to make players want to start the game as different chars and actually use all 5 char slots. Besides there is always skill resets which can be introduced to players much earlier if this change were to go in.

I guess unlocking class skills as you level would work, i think whats crucial though is that players get a huge bonus to their class skill at the beginning and then the bonuses get lower and lower. That way the players get a feel right from the beginning. Perhaps you think thats going to make new players to powerful, but i dont think thats a issue at all. Early game should be the players destroying anything and everything that looks at them, then mid game stuff should get a little complicated. This is all just my opinion of course...

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Mon Jun 02, 2014 8:48 pm
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Post Re: Begining of the Game
redalert150 wrote:
The super item idea and different skin is pretty nice. Everyone loves customizing their character your only going to attract more players if you give us more customization of our ships.

I personally think "locking" someone in from the beginning to a class is more fun then having no class, its going to make players want to start the game as different chars and actually use all 5 char slots. Besides there is always skill resets which can be introduced to players much earlier if this change were to go in.

I guess unlocking class skills as you level would work, i think whats crucial though is that players get a huge bonus to their class skill at the beginning and then the bonuses get lower and lower. That way the players get a feel right from the beginning. Perhaps you think thats going to make new players to powerful, but i dont think thats a issue at all. Early game should be the players destroying anything and everything that looks at them, then mid game stuff should get a little complicated. This is all just my opinion of course...

I have to agree with this, early game standards are usually the player obliterating almost anything fairly easily without much (if any) difficulty, this changes as they go up levels and face more difficult mobs till eventually oh shit endgame where everything is fucking overpowered and actually crushes YOU if you're not well equipped and smart about it.

In a way, I see SS in a slightly different light than maplestory, in maple you can start as an adventurer (basically no class), and you begin by fighting weak snails and, truthfully it's easy as hell, in comparison SS is like a maplestory with snails that spit acid and go absolutely nuts on your ass at the beginning basically screwing you over right at the start because the power curve is fucked up.

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Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:16 am
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Post Re: Begining of the Game
A few us developers in my clan have been talking about this topic.

hands down the problem with this game is terrible implementation
of the values in the modular/ship system as well as the progression.

Like many inexperienced developers there is this over-whelming
desire to be lazy, and use vertical progression with out doing
research or understanding it.

Advocating (Original poster) For more of it (Ie Vertical Progression; Aka Power) will only break the game beyond its state. Giving Massive buffs to people will only make the game worse, The Exact opposite needs to happen... Progression wise the game needs to have a range in the area of what is currently 0-100. I have no doubt if this game had the time/balance frame of 0-100 it'd be absolutely fixed (granted, i think leveling to level 100 in this game (aka tech 10 should probably be more like level 0-300) . The problem is the massive differential there in after that point which is accumulated through skills, and augments (Specifically the latter).

This game has no skill involved in it, Its all about who has the bigger number (or epeen).

On the other hand, we believe classes should be much lower in level to access, around lvl 25 is the agreed upon value, I personally however differ from them and would even make it a starter quest.

People who answer problems in games > a marginal amount of the time with "power" are idiots in my opinion, and have absolutely no idea what they are doing, then again look at the income and population of this game, i think that speaks for itself.


Last edited by uhmari on Tue Jun 03, 2014 6:28 am, edited 3 times in total.

Tue Jun 03, 2014 6:14 am
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Post Re: Begining of the Game
More into the classes...

They need to be working on a concept that causes them to play the game differently. Incorporating the ships would an interesting idea.. which i think merits more investigation.

Classes should cause the player to deal with situations differently, they should have abilities, i think that is great but i think it should be a very careful selection of those passives.

I'd cap the master class skills at a set value (level 10) and then make it so that you can only place 10 points in the sub-class skills. For example, Berserker class level 10 cap, with the various sub-classes, like impervious armor having a limitation on it (at 5).

This will cause the player to think and be engaged in the class, and you may even find them respec'ing much more often to deal with other sitations, ot to maximize the build.

I also believe the classes should be receiving for the most part tools, as opposed to power buffs, the players need to be engaged in an intellectual way, not a "Power" "Bigger" hammer nonsensical manner.


I would work it out like this (as per example)

Berserker Class
Grants Multi-Fire (passive)
Multi-Fire Fires all weapons on a ship each round, and reduces the energy cost by 3.5% (Per Level)

Ability Granted For selecting this class: Skill " Regenerative shielding" : Regenerates 1.25% (+.25% Per Class Level) of Max Shields a second for 6 seconds.8 Second cooldown.

Sub Class (Capped at level 5)

Energy Specialization : Reduce the energy cost of weapons by 3% (Per Level)
Impervious Armor: Improve Resistances to all types by 6.5% (Per Level)
Frenzy: Improve Rate of Fire by 3.5% and Base Speed by 2.5%, and shield regeneration by 7.5 Regeneration a second HP, (Per Level) For each successful hit, stacking up to three times.

The Idea's for this class would be the player is dealing lots of damage, and is constantly chasing after the enemy, his weakness is in fighting counter classes he cant see (like Seer); Granted i am a big fan of cyclical Balance, and PRS balance systems.


Tue Jun 03, 2014 6:26 am
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Post Re: Begining of the Game
uhmari wrote:
More into the classes...
Berserker Class
Grants Multi-Fire (passive)
Multi-Fire Fires all weapons on a ship each round, and reduces the energy cost by 3.5% (Per Level)

Ability Granted For selecting this class: Skill " Regenerative shielding" : Regenerates 1.25% (+.25% Per Class Level) of Max Shields a second for 6 seconds.8 Second cooldown.

Sub Class (Capped at level 5)

Energy Specialization : Reduce the energy cost of weapons by 3% (Per Level)
Impervious Armor: Improve Resistances to all types by 6.5% (Per Level)
Frenzy: Improve Rate of Fire by 3.5% and Base Speed by 2.5%, and shield regeneration by 7.5 Regeneration a second HP, (Per Level) For each successful hit, stacking up to three times.

The Idea's for this class would be the player is dealing lots of damage, and is constantly chasing after the enemy, his weakness is in fighting counter classes he cant see (like Seer); Granted i am a big fan of cyclical Balance, and PRS balance systems.

Arite 10 seconds,
Laugh....
Im done.

On a more constructive note: Agree to all above except the less than well informed poster above me. Im all for giving players a weakened t21 booster at the lvl 50 or so point. I mean any form of that centered ability would be a godsend when your in a EFF at lvl 150 at 10% banks waiting for 4 hours to regen between swarms. If for example you got a much reduced selection of the t21 bonus (example centered might give +50 or +100 not 500) at the beginning you could adjust game play to that idea more so than pure class which you have to grow into via lvling. Once you hit the real deals it becomes less usefull then class skills until you hit t21 and get the proper one.

Vorp


Tue Jun 03, 2014 7:48 am
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Post Re: Begining of the Game
Vorporal wrote:
Arite 10 seconds,
Laugh....
Im done.

On a more constructive note: Agree to all above except the less than well informed poster above me. Im all for giving players a weakened t21 booster at the lvl 50 or so point. I mean any form of that centered ability would be a godsend when your in a EFF at lvl 150 at 10% banks waiting for 4 hours to regen between swarms. If for example you got a much reduced selection of the t21 bonus (example centered might give +50 or +100 not 500) at the beginning you could adjust game play to that idea more so than pure class which you have to grow into via lvling. Once you hit the real deals it becomes less usefull then class skills until you hit t21 and get the proper one.

Vorp



Being that you edited the post (likely after recognizing your fault) Let me explain.

First a common mistake players do on the forums if focus on values.. Values are only a problem if you have the mentality to use them for the solution to everything (which this and some other devs do)


The idea's above is to get the berserk to become a sort of "frenzy" class that attacks, and go's in "All or nothing" Gaining regen, and efficient in battle.

The Above values are based on current game "values", If you want to have a discussion about how i feel it should be (After a database rework) then we can have such a conversation, but the conversation that is taking place now is no where near that (and i already addressed that the post prior).


In my eyes the following is how the classes should work (in concept).

Seer -
Play style : Ambush tactics - Decloak, Fire, Recloak, Repeat.
Special: Combat Cloak: Usable at 15% Hp, Cloaks the ship for 3-8 seconds (based on level;+1 sec per level), Renders the ship undetectable except by lighthouse or counter abilities.
Excels: At harassing
Counter Class: Fleet commander

Berserk -
Play style : All In. Gains buffs as he deals consecutive attacks.
Special: Frenzy: Improves regen, speed, rate of fire with consecutive attacks. (possibly instead of gaining speed he lowers the targets)
Excels: At killing heavy targets.
Counter class: Sniper

Sniper
Play style: Burst Damage, Ranged.
Special: Low Visibility when stationary
Excels: At Alpha-strike Ranged attacks
Weakness: While stationary
Counter class: Speed Demon

Speed Demon
Play Style: Dodging weapons fire, while dealing damage
Special: damaging the target creates a stacking effect, damaging the target over time (This will cause the class to become dangerous if ignored)
Excels: at speed
Counter Class: Seer

Shield Monkey
Play Style: Healing, Shield Drain
Special : Drains 1-4% of target shields every second for 3 seconds, and heals for equal amount
Excels: At Healing
Counter Class: Gunner

Engineer:
Play style: Tanking
Special: improves resistances as you take damage
Excels: at tanking
Counter class: Shield Monkey

Gunner
Play style: Consistent Damage
Special: improves Rate of fire
Excels: at pressuring a targets tank
Counter class: Engineer

Fleet commander
Play style: Buffs, Moderate Tank
Special: grants all class buffs to allies (movement speed, Visibility, e-Rgen)
Excels: at providing support, and detection
Counter Class: Berserk


(just a rough idea, its nothing refined)


Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:22 am
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Post Re: Begining of the Game
redalert150 wrote:
I personally think "locking" someone in from the beginning to a class is more fun then having no class, its going to make players want to start the game as different chars and actually use all 5 char slots. Besides there is always skill resets which can be introduced to players much earlier if this change were to go in.


Yeah, I think I'm coming more around to this line of thinking. The other aspect of this is that if you choose your class at the beginning, you have just a hair more emotional investment in your character. After all, you've looked at the choices, thought about which class you like the best, then chosen one. You might as well play a little bit before quitting to justify your choice...

Of course, the two things that have really held this idea back are 1) classes currently take skill points, and it's a little bit weird to give people skills at the beginning using our current system, and 2) There are no low level capital ships, nor do I really want to add low level capital ships, so that kind of makes Fleet Focus classes as initial choices to be a bit weak.

Not that these things can't be overcome, but we just did a huge class rebalance, so I'm not jumping into any major new changes on this front too quickly.

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Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:29 pm
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Post Re: Begining of the Game
Uhmari, could you bugger off and stop criticizing every detail of this game?

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Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:47 pm
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Post Re: Begining of the Game
Classes should have value, and not be "for higher levels only".
They should have unique addresses, and focuses / styles of game play.

As i am understanding it, out side of design concepts of the game the biggest problem of correcting any of that stuff is the single unwavering desire to make the game "Niche" to an extreme level.

Good game development is not about You (Ie the developers opinion), its about seeing what the problems are, and fixing it.

Here is some other opinions/videos worth watching.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EitZRLt2G3w


Tue Jun 03, 2014 4:15 pm
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Post Re: Begining of the Game
uhmari wrote:
Classes should have value, and not be "for higher levels only".
They should have unique addresses, and focuses / styles of game play.

As i am understanding it, out side of design concepts of the game the biggest problem of correcting any of that stuff is the single unwavering desire to make the game "Niche" to an extreme level.

Good game development is not about You (Ie the developers opinion), its about seeing what the problems are, and fixing it.

Here is some other opinions/videos worth watching.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EitZRLt2G3w


Classes do have value. Choosing a class lets you play the game a different way and kind of locks you into a range of different play-styles that all have different strengths and weaknesses. It isn't super meaningful at low levels as there are more downsides than upsides for choosing specific classes, but that's a known issue and a very important factor in keeping new players. The developers are extremely aware of this and have been discussing it constantly. That's what this suggestion thread is about, as well as many other suggestions in reference to the early game.

Good game development isn't about catering to the masses. It's about creating your vision of your game while being able to take constructive criticism in a meaningful way that helps transform your game into something that extrudes excellence. It's okay to have a different opinion of how a game should be, but the ultimate choice is at the discretion of the developers.

Your attitude is extremely aggressive in the way you push your ideas saying "it HAS to be this way"; actually, it doesn't. It doesn't have to be anything if the developers don't want it to be. So take a chill pill and mull over these words for a bit. You are not in charge of this game or this community. You are not in an authoritative position in relation to anything SS related. Your opinions mean very little to everyone here, especially the developers, mostly due to your tone and extreme sense of entitlement. You've already shown several of the developers that you are an unreasonable person. Why do you think they stopped responding to you?

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