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Team: Bravery Against Death
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Post Re: p2p Benefits
MasterTrader wrote:
Stop trying to protect people with artificial limits, and instead continue with the current theme:

Let people build their galaxies up with disposable, nontransferable gear/drones/augs/factories/extractors. Its cheaper but takes more time and you have to do it every universe.

And keep the permanent gear that is more expensive, and a bit weaker than fully upgraded gear, but is permanent and can be transferred over multiple universes.


No wonder people leave if the answer to the problem is 'spend more time playing'.


Fri May 06, 2016 10:07 am
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Post Re: p2p Benefits
carterstrain wrote:
KonanCruss wrote:
So how does that solve that the Premiums that quit because they got their ass kicked?
Because, right now, the game isn't in a good shape; people that are paying are leaving. The drain is bigger then the source currently. So you do something to make the drain smaller, or you do something for the source to be bigger. From what I've seen with these suggestions, you aren't doing either of those.


Base building needs to be streamlined. Everyone can agree on that.

The number one rule in Eve Online is: "Don't fly what you can't afford to lose." Everyone. Says. This. Players AND developers.


Eve has most of the same people that have been playing it for decades, just like here. The difference is they had a huge player base, and even they saw the problem and made some rather unpopular changes fairly recently to try to bring in more players.

Based on what I have seen of numbers, I doubt that SS is bringing in much more than 10k/month. That's a hell of a long way from EvE 66 Million per year in 2012, followed by a 2013 21 million dollar loss.

Eve's approach won't work here, simply because the player base is far too low to support ANY kind of exodus.

A different approach is that not "stay the course" is required, or erosion will eventually wear the game down.


Fri May 06, 2016 10:13 am
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Post Re: p2p Benefits
Rammus wrote:
carterstrain wrote:
The number one rule in Eve Online is: "Don't fly what you can't afford to lose." Everyone. Says. This. Players AND developers.


Eve's approach won't work here, simply because the player base is far too low to support ANY kind of exodus.


You have misunderstood what I wrote.

Quote:
So how does that solve that the Premiums that quit because they got their ass kicked?


This is (one of many) the problem. Casual players come to the game, they like it, they subscribe for a year, and usually get their ass kicked. Granted, they never saw it coming. There is no build up of threat coming for their ass. With minimal effort, they can secure swaths of galaxies and potentially reap insane rewards. Most of them don't. But they do eventually get curbstomped and bitch on the forums about how unfair it is for a team, which deliberately did not build defenses, to lose everything to a prepared attacker. They put everything, according to them, into their bases. All their valuable loot, all their ship equipment, all their construction projects, into weak little bases that stand no chance of surviving simple PVB from a small group of equal level players....

And complain when the tsunami washes the sandcastle away.

People build exactly what they cannot afford to lose in Star Sonata.

What Eve did, was say "Don't fly what you cannot afford to lose." It's simple and it works. It also removes any bitch arguments the playerbase can come up with. People still fly things they cannot afford to lose. But now it's on them. If I say "Don't touch the burning stove" and YOU STILL TOUCH THE BURNING STOVE, then Mommy is not at fault. The child is at fault.

What has been happening recently, though, is that after the child touches the burning stove despite knowing full well it will burn him, the child rushes to Daddy's safe, pulls out his gun, and shoots himself in the head because Mommy didn't immediately disintegrate the stove to avenge the child's burnt hand.

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Fri May 06, 2016 11:40 am
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Post Re: p2p Benefits
PsyRamius wrote:
MasterTrader wrote:
Stop trying to protect people with artificial limits, and instead continue with the current theme:

Let people build their galaxies up with disposable, nontransferable gear/drones/augs/factories/extractors. Its cheaper but takes more time and you have to do it every universe.

And keep the permanent gear that is more expensive, and a bit weaker than fully upgraded gear, but is permanent and can be transferred over multiple universes.


No wonder people leave if the answer to the problem is 'spend more time playing'.


"Takes more time" doesn't mean actual play time. It means you need to wait for items to build, like XYZ gear works now. Have you built a base recently and taken it through the XYZ upgrade process, or are you still basing your impression of how bases work off of how they worked back when we started playing?

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Fri May 06, 2016 11:55 am
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Post Re: p2p Benefits
MasterTrader wrote:
PsyRamius wrote:
MasterTrader wrote:
Stop trying to protect people with artificial limits, and instead continue with the current theme:

Let people build their galaxies up with disposable, nontransferable gear/drones/augs/factories/extractors. Its cheaper but takes more time and you have to do it every universe.

And keep the permanent gear that is more expensive, and a bit weaker than fully upgraded gear, but is permanent and can be transferred over multiple universes.


No wonder people leave if the answer to the problem is 'spend more time playing'.


"Takes more time" doesn't mean actual play time. It means you need to wait for items to build, like XYZ gear works now. Have you built a base recently and taken it through the XYZ upgrade process, or are you still basing your impression of how bases work off of how they worked back when we started playing?


Based on the "old" way, true enough.

But I don't see how your statement "have to do it every universe" does not also translate into having to take more game time to do it. Is it work, or is it fun?

Your statement at it's face made me reconsider subbing for the Reset tomorrow. A reset I was very much looking forward to experiencing. Probably will anyway, 30$ ain't that much in the bigger scheme of things for me for a couple of months of nostalgia, and I figured out AFK DG so at least I can play it like Progress Quest if I don't want to build bases.

If the only hope I have is to build cheap and disposable because I should expect to loose it all repeatedly, or fighting for ANY space in W0 with the existing shop builders, and that doing that takes time, (maybe not my actual time, like AFK DG farming, but game time), then I can expect to have to wait for the fun bits...(PvP/ BvB) exactly how long from level 1000?

I still think your primary assertion, that they should "Stop trying to protect people with artificial limits, and instead continue with the current theme:" is demonstratively flawed, simply by the egress and erosion of the player base for exactly the reason of total loss.

To point to the flawed analogy just used, it's not like

"If I say "Don't touch the burning stove" and YOU STILL TOUCH THE BURNING STOVE, then Mommy is not at fault. The child is at fault."

It's like someone putting a left on stove in the middle of a day care, telling all the kids not to touch it, and then wondering why all the parents of kids with burned hands are suddenly withdrawing and putting them in a safe environment.

The moment a game tries to punish it's players, and effectively locks players out of the majority of the content if they are not interested in the risk or that loss, is the moment the game loses market share.

Eve is currently behind the 8 ball, lost 28 million and shut down it's studio in San Francisco in 2014, while Candy Crush made over .5 billion profit in Q1 2015. So pointing to Eve's "Success" with their well known policy is pretty stupid, given their current state of profitability.

So a choice has to be made. Appeal to a larger audience, or die from stagnation.

Oh, and I know Eve Valkyrie with the OR was supposed to do "something" for them, but from the first hand reports I have heard about playing it, the game is pretty but really really shallow. All ships turn at the same speed so all "aim" and missile mechanics and skill revolve around head turning, which is what it looks like the developers REALLY want people to do allot.

I still have yet to here a real negative to locking the W1/W2 to specific levels other than what really just sounds like "I don't like it".

Hell if the last couple of weeks of me trolling around in it are any indication, W2 is a ghost town base wise, and W1 is barely populated. Those that are there are exactly the kind of people (lower levels) that should be protected from the 3.5k level monsters that I see patrolling around.

Un-written rules/behavior about not attacking in W2/W1 (if they exist) does not do the most important thing that is missing, providing limited protection to those still learning.


Fri May 06, 2016 12:55 pm
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Post Re: p2p Benefits
Candy Crush is almost literally a one or two man development team that work from home and incur no expenses other than internet access and some TV advertisement.

CCP Games (Makers of Eve Online) have to pay for staff, office space, warehouses, promotions, events, servers, and a number of clients that do additional work. They have to constantly seek and retain a large playerbase for an MMORPG.

Candy Crush doesn't seek or retain because it's at this point a hard drug. Users will keep coming back to the dealer regardless of the legal ramifications.

====

Let me explain to you that analogy. Governments and corporations tell people not to do stupid, crazy, and or dangerous things because they will get hurt and need an emergency room to patch them up. Corporations also issue these warnings to avoid any kind of legal backlash. They told you it was dangerous; you still did it anyways. Now you're missing a leg. You can't sue the government/corporation and actually win. Any and all judges will laugh you out of the room because the sign clearly stated you would end up that way.

So SS needs to do is:

->Point to "Hostile Universe"

->Explain you will get PVP'd and most likely lose bases, galaxies, drones, money.

->Explain that you can always get back up and try again.

->Explain that the group is always better than the individual when defending yourself.

->Sit back and relax because anyone from now on the bitches about losing bases and such to attackers have no ground to argue that they should get compensation for losing an arm after jumping in and pissing off the sleeping lion in the cage that says "Beware of hungry lion".

All the small teams that got nuked for whatever reason mainly because they deliberately built crap and the Vikings popped in, or decided poking the sleeping lion with a stick was not going to rip his arm off, all demanded compensation.

Namely, Star Sonata needed to prove to them that Star Sonata values their money. By banning the ever living crap out of their attackers. Any less and they leave. Considering the ethical nature of banning anyone who PVPs in a PVP game, they all left.

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Fri May 06, 2016 9:54 pm
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Post Re: p2p Benefits
There is nonetheless still the thing that in wild space you have to be able to defend against everything. Whenever a new tech comes out the building standards raise for EVERYONE, because PvP limits in practice don't exist.
Either the game should go for a total loss approach like EVE(we used to have GG, which was pretty close), or it should go for a more carebear approach, in which the bases of level 50 players don't have to stand up to prawns.
Sure, you could tell them "don't build in wild space before endgame/alone/badly", but then again they can just take their money elsewhere.
Elsewhere such as to a game that doesn't force them to immediately compete with players who have spent way more time and money on the game.


Sat May 07, 2016 2:44 am
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Post Re: p2p Benefits
carterstrain wrote:
Candy Crush is almost literally a one or two man development team that work from home and incur no expenses other than internet access and some TV advertisement.

CCP Games (Makers of Eve Online) have to pay for staff, office space, warehouses, promotions, events, servers, and a number of clients that do additional work. They have to constantly seek and retain a large playerbase for an MMORPG.

Candy Crush doesn't seek or retain because it's at this point a hard drug. Users will keep coming back to the dealer regardless of the legal ramifications.

====

Let me explain to you that analogy. Governments and corporations tell people not to do stupid, crazy, and or dangerous things because they will get hurt and need an emergency room to patch them up. Corporations also issue these warnings to avoid any kind of legal backlash. They told you it was dangerous; you still did it anyways. Now you're missing a leg. You can't sue the government/corporation and actually win. Any and all judges will laugh you out of the room because the sign clearly stated you would end up that way.

So SS needs to do is:

->Point to "Hostile Universe"

->Explain you will get PVP'd and most likely lose bases, galaxies, drones, money.

->Explain that you can always get back up and try again.

->Explain that the group is always better than the individual when defending yourself.

->Sit back and relax because anyone from now on the bitches about losing bases and such to attackers have no ground to argue that they should get compensation for losing an arm after jumping in and pissing off the sleeping lion in the cage that says "Beware of hungry lion".

All the small teams that got nuked for whatever reason mainly because they deliberately built crap and the Vikings popped in, or decided poking the sleeping lion with a stick was not going to rip his arm off, all demanded compensation.

Namely, Star Sonata needed to prove to them that Star Sonata values their money. By banning the ever living crap out of their attackers. Any less and they leave. Considering the ethical nature of banning anyone who PVPs in a PVP game, they all left.

Your suggestion ain't a solution to make the drain smaller. People that have quit, do know all these things; but they still do it. You are making analogies, but none of these analogies have a scenario, where the kid with the burnt hand could just leave home and search for a safer, and nicer place.

Your fixes have nothing to do, with getting more people in, or make it so less people leave. Sure, it's their fault by putting all their valuables, but it isn't their fault that they have to defend galaxies like any end game team. Do you expect that teams like Electric Sheep go defend all their galaxies with Adamantium Kits? Or do you want to make it so, that on their lvl, if they are defending with 5 Demented Kits, they are fine from any direct PvB or BvB attempts.
Right now, everyone is in the same jar, the lv1k premium guy that wants to build in Wildspace, and hasn't joined one of the end game teams; won't have the knowledge, nor the financial power to get stuff like how it should be to defend a galaxy.

Right now, if you aren't able to deploy anything besides Adamantium Kits, you'll never have the assurance that bored end gamers won't blow your galaxy away.


Sat May 07, 2016 3:53 am
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Post Re: p2p Benefits
carterstrain wrote:
Candy Crush is almost literally a one or two man development team that work from home and incur no expenses other than internet access and some TV advertisement.

CCP Games (Makers of Eve Online) have to pay for staff, office space, warehouses, promotions, events, servers, and a number of clients that do additional work. They have to constantly seek and retain a large playerbase for an MMORPG.

Candy Crush doesn't seek or retain because it's at this point a hard drug. Users will keep coming back to the dealer regardless of the legal ramifications.

====

Let me explain to you that analogy. Governments and corporations tell people not to do stupid, crazy, and or dangerous things because they will get hurt and need an emergency room to patch them up. Corporations also issue these warnings to avoid any kind of legal backlash. They told you it was dangerous; you still did it anyways. Now you're missing a leg. You can't sue the government/corporation and actually win. Any and all judges will laugh you out of the room because the sign clearly stated you would end up that way.

So SS needs to do is:

->Point to "Hostile Universe"

->Explain you will get PVP'd and most likely lose bases, galaxies, drones, money.

->Explain that you can always get back up and try again.

->Explain that the group is always better than the individual when defending yourself.

->Sit back and relax because anyone from now on the bitches about losing bases and such to attackers have no ground to argue that they should get compensation for losing an arm after jumping in and pissing off the sleeping lion in the cage that says "Beware of hungry lion".

All the small teams that got nuked for whatever reason mainly because they deliberately built crap and the Vikings popped in, or decided poking the sleeping lion with a stick was not going to rip his arm off, all demanded compensation.

Namely, Star Sonata needed to prove to them that Star Sonata values their money. By banning the ever living crap out of their attackers. Any less and they leave. Considering the ethical nature of banning anyone who PVPs in a PVP game, they all left.


The ignorance in your knowledge about Candy Crush is astounding, considering a quick google of the company would show you this from the wiki.

Quote:
King Digital Entertainment PLC, also known as King.com, is a social games company. King develops games for the web, for mobile (iOS, Android, Windows Phone), Facebook, and Windows 10. King is led by Riccardo Zacconi, who has served in that role since co-founding the company in 2003. Gerhard Florin is the current Chairman of Board. He took over from Melvyn Morris when he stepped down in November 2014. The company has 1400 employees and parcels development out to small, autonomous teams of designers working with a "startup" mentality.

In 2013, it spent $110.5 million on research and development, roughly 6 percent of sales.

On 23 February 2016, King was acquired by Activision Blizzard for $5.9 billion.
...
King's most popular game is Candy Crush Saga, which was launched on King's website in March 2011, which is a Match 3 game.


As to your other part, this has been the outcome of that thinking for quite some time, because I am pretty sure anyone who has played more than a couple of weeks and socialized at all knows that W3+ is no holds barred.

Since Jeff said that it takes an average of 3 months for people to move from f2p to p2p, I'm sure everyone KNOWS there is risk, they just HOPE they get ignored.

So that explanation probably goes like

Point....
Explain....
Explain....
Explain....

Ok got it, no chance to catch up, no chance to survive in the Pay to Play areas because I can't catch up in less than a year, or I am forced to try to join/socialized with vets I may not like, not going to have fun ... Gone.

It's like asking people to visit a zoo where the lions aren't in cages. Bet that would be real popular.

The LEAST care bear game I know of (League of Legends), a game with the reputation for the most toxic players in the gaming world, full on PvP every single game, extremely competitive in the ranked play, is currently the worlds most popular online game.

http://www.sportsgoogly.com/most-popular-online-games/

They did that because certain aspects of the game are one way. You can't lose levels, you can't lose purchased ruins, you can't lose champs, and you don't put months of work into something that can be lost in a day on the whims of a troll smurf. You can choose to play against bots, choose to play ranked, or climb into the pit with the big boys and fight to the top.

The point it stratifying the experience so that you have a choice to take different levels of risk/play is good for a game, especially one where you can be impacted by other players being ass hats.

Right now the SS levels appear to be

Zero risk, Low reward.
Total Risk, High reward with a high probability that you could lose all invested time and assets at risk without warning.

Again, a zoo where the lions don't live in cages.


Sat May 07, 2016 9:31 am
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Post Re: p2p Benefits
Infernal Empire
Rendition
Electric Sheep
Deep Space Federation
Zephyr
Reddit Space Invaders

Those are the most recent weak teams that took hits from another team. Some only got hit by a small team like themselves. Others got hit by the full onslaught of a top end team.

Infernal Empire: For years they built substandard defenses (2 Dem T20s, 2007 era stuff) and expected their neutrality to deter everyone. Each universe, they would inch closer and closer to the very center of W3 confident that no one would even contemplate attacking them. Red Faction demo'd every base. IE went on the forums to bitch. When the admins did not delete RF, about 75% of IE quit right then and there. IE had used some 20 accounts to grab 32 galaxies and put down 150 bases. IE is a shell of its former self.

Rendition was a one man team of Lazarus. He considers nearly every other player an actual 12 year old punk (despite many of them having adult children) and especially goes out of his way to belittle and antagonize Lemon for no particular reason. He BVBd Red Faction with Adonis bases (despite having SM20, he physically cannot build anything more than Adonis gear for whatever stupid reason), which banked immediately. He bitched to the admins about RF hacking (because he BVBd a bunch of Annihilator bases with Adonis bases and lost), and when the admins didn't delete RF, he actually unsubbed all his accounts (which totals like 5?) and ragequit.

Electric Sheep built up 10 galaxies and claimed at least 10 more in connectors with about 10 accounts (4 of them one guy). They used 1 Dem T20 and 1 T18 Bana Healer (even less than Infernal Empire) per major galaxy. This strategy dates to 2007. They too tried to stay alone and neutral but actually were fairly deep into W3. Ada Souls came along and effortlessly BVBd a galaxy to prove a point that people need to build better, going to the effort to try and contact Electric Sheep, refund everything and more, and offer a new game plan for them free of charge. Electric Sheep, with the exception of one guy, decided to bitch on the forums, and when the admins didn't delete Ada Souls, they ragequit and unsubbed most of their accounts.

The original iteration of Deep Space Federation had quite a thing about *only* being a Nexus Training Team. Talks with former members from that era all resulted in the idea that as soon as you can figure out how to do some basic dungeons, you were *graduated* and talks were made between DSF leaders and bigger teams to get you off DSF and into their team without outright kicking you in order to prolong DSF's existence and pad the leaders' pockets. The graduate community did not leave, so someone provoked Red Faction to attack. The graduate community was forbidden access to an HQ or Outposts, so RF cleaned all the noobs out. About half of them quit. From what ex-members said, they had claimed quite a bit of W3 space with very little defenses. I got an earful of Zalistar and Rendghast boasting into my pm bar that it was all coming to plan and DSF will be better off this way.

For all of Zephyr's existence, whenever a team beats Zephyr to a pulp, they all bitch on the forums about being bullied (most of the "bullies" being single players or smaller teams). Each member builds alone, collectively forming a team space but ultimately no team defense. If a player is attacked, no one comes to their aid. Even if they know about an attack in advance, they don't try mobilizing until the enemy is boots on the ground. This only results in devastation. Anyways, enough about the poor intra-team relations. They bitch on the forums and when the admins don't delete their attacker, half of them unsub their accounts and resubs them the next year.

The latest version of Reddit Space Invaders is .. or was, 2 accounts. For whatever stupid reason, their leader cannot even conceptualize the idea of merging into another team. It would destroy the independence of RSI or some bullshit. So RSI stuck alone out in W3 and claimed something like 4 galaxies. Technically, they started with nothing. A week later, they were using Adonis bases. Most noobs can build up to Adonis within 24 hours. And so, Ada Souls effortlessly nuked them. Instead of rebuilding better or merging into a better team with bigger chances, RSI decided to throw a bitchfit (into my PM bar so RIP me) and unsub their accounts.

====

Actually, no, you're wrong on the rewards part. It goes like this.

High risk, standard rewards.
Zero risk, substandard rewards.

Wild Space galaxies are the unaltered galaxies. You don't get any benefit for being there. W1 Wild Space has the same galaxy quality as W1 EF space, except EF space removes all the Tier1+ commods, all the ruined artifacts, and has a max limit of 2b colony pop. If EF space went to W2 and W3, you'll find the same overall quality of galaxies in EF space as in Wild space, minus the Tier1+ commods, ruins, and still have max2b pop colonies.

To me, that's a big fat turnoff. I'm paying to have my original privileges returned to me, not have additional privileges.

That's like a person taking away my original toy, and telling me to get it back I must pay him money, instead of it going I pay him money to get more toys.

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Sat May 07, 2016 11:14 am
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Post Re: p2p Benefits
carterstrain wrote:
People build exactly what they cannot afford to lose in Star Sonata.


Bases are a good way to make money. Bases cost money. Proper defence costs money. Noobs without money don't even know what a good defence is (and it's hard to conceive how powerful an endgame squad is without experience) and will only be tested once in a blue moon.

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Sat May 07, 2016 5:17 pm
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Post Re: p2p Benefits
The Salty One wrote:
carterstrain wrote:
People build exactly what they cannot afford to lose in Star Sonata.


Bases are a good way to make money. Bases cost money. Proper defence costs money. Noobs without money don't even know what a good defence is (and it's hard to conceive how powerful an endgame squad is without experience) and will only be tested once in a blue moon.


Unless we have ai (termites) that attack your shit at the same power level as an endgame squad.

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Sat May 07, 2016 5:19 pm
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Post Re: p2p Benefits
The Salty One wrote:
carterstrain wrote:
People build exactly what they cannot afford to lose in Star Sonata.


Bases are a good way to make money. Bases cost money. Proper defence costs money. Noobs without money don't even know what a good defence is (and it's hard to conceive how powerful an endgame squad is without experience) and will only be tested once in a blue moon.


With the exception of the original iteration of DSF, all of the people that I listed had been around long enough to amass a considerable pile of wealth even with minimal effort of attaining profit.

They argument you present implies Traders and EF are both dirt poor, bankrupt, little noob teams that get rocked every universe and lose half your space to 13 PVBing you.

These teams have existed for years without being attacked on that kind of level to actually feel like they would have to dent their ocean sized savings account. They ragequitted because the admins would not cave to their whim and delete their attacker.

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Sat May 07, 2016 5:48 pm
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Post Re: p2p Benefits
No my argument says there should either be a reason to actually attack people (for profit), AI that are as strong as proper squads/bvb or just leave them alone to build shitty.

Honestly killing someone's stuff because you can make money is easy to understand, but killing it because "you should build better, though we could still kill you anyways" seems less motivating.

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Sun May 08, 2016 12:22 pm
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Post Re: p2p Benefits
Look I don't give a fuck what people have to say about "We shouldn't hand hold" or anything else like that, the reality is that you need to design so that the lowest common denominator can enjoy your game. Then you build in options and features for people who want to lose themselves in the intricacies of the game. Otherwise you have a floundering game that stays stagnant.

You can't listen to the hard core people all of the time, these are the types of people with no life and way too much investment. I AM ONE OF THEM, but I can admit that.

This pic is waaaaaay too accurate, even though its about the new Doom game.


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Sun May 08, 2016 9:31 pm
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