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Post Hober's Tentative Class Augmenter Changes
This topic is to get a general feeling for the communities opinions about the class locked augmenters (Proficiency to Ultimate Art of Mastery augmenters). Due to the change to class bonuses based on level, I brought up during a dev meeting that class augmenters would need to be looked at to ensure that they were all useful. I subsequently volunteered to go over the augmenters.

Here are said augmenters: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing


I've updated the spreadsheet and it should be much easier to read now. I've also updated the stats as well to account for feedback and changes. The stats in the below posts may not be up to date.

EDIT2: I've updated it again, this time with the Art of augmenters removed.


In going over these augmenters, I found many of the higher end augmenters (Art of and Ultimate Art of) to be very underwhelming choices as well. Some of these augmenters seemed to have very little stat focus, or their focus was more on utility or a niche style of gameplay rather than enabling the class to do what it already did even better.

For example, the Gunner augmenters gave such large bonuses to range (and in some cases speed) that they did not enable a Gunner to do what it already did better. Gunner uses really big weapons, which already have relatively high range (400-600). Gunner's fly the biggest, fattest, heaviest ships in the game... why are they playing like a Speed Demon? Why is there 15% Speed on a Tech 20 Augmenter that you will be putting on ships that move anywhere between 40 and 70? Why do I get such tiny Weapon Hold when I'm supposed to be a Gunner with BIG GUNS? Find out next time on Dragon Ball Z...

Anyway, here are the goals I have for these changes. These are not final and set in stone, these are tentative. Please argue for what you think is fair/right:

  • Each augmenter should reflect the class bonuses and the strengths of the class. The augmenter should have obvious strengths with "holes" in stats instead of negatives.
  • Proficiency/Aptitude/Prowess/Mastery augmenters should be powerful augmenters that push the player towards the fantasy of their class, these augs are to "guide" players in the right direction when putting together setups for their ships.
  • EDIT: THESE WILL NOT BE TOUCHED Art of/Ultimate Art of Augmenters should enhance the strengths of the class even more, while also giving some utility (But not so much that you get everything your class would need from the augmenter).

I'm looking for clear feedback: "X augmenter shouldn't have Y stat because Z reason." is a good example of what I mean. I've already received feedback from some players in the game, but I'm opening up the field for more feedback.

TL;DR: Changing augs to fit the class rescaling, saw that many class locked augs were very lackluster. Read the list I made for neccessary details.

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Last edited by MasterTrader on Fri Sep 30, 2016 9:57 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Wed Sep 21, 2016 1:39 am
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Post Re: Hober's Tentative Class Augmenter Changes
Expertise Augmenter T22 version

Art of/Ult Art of made different aug design

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Wed Sep 21, 2016 2:15 am
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Post Re: Hober's Tentative Class Augmenter Changes
Ultimate Art Of Healing should have:
1) More trans power OR Include damage and lower trans power just a bit so that it's better than AoH.
2) Increase shield to be either equal to or a little greater than AoH.
3) It needs trans efficiency.
4) Maybe less RoF

Reasons:
1) UAoH has the same amount of trans power as an AoH (AoH: Damage 10% +25% trans power = 35% trans power = UAoH.) You get nothing better over the AoH. Only losing damage on other weapons, not that ShMs use damaging weapons in the first place.
2) Why does a T22 aug give less shields than its predecessor: a T20 aug?
3) Without eff that resist to damage (Although it includes all damages) is basically giving you 12% trans Eff vs the 20% that AoH has. You should increase the Trans Eff on the UAoH and keep the resist (If it's OP then lower the resist). Despite ShMs having a bunch of HPS and regen, I've seen setups still break because of not enough Eff.
4) Less RoF so it doesn't become too powerful an augmenter all on its own, especially since some T22 alien augs provide a good amount of RoF.

I haven't really looked into what other ShMs are augged with, but when I was crunching numbers and considering my aug setups for T22, I didn't even look at UAoH since it's basically a different AoH providing almost less benifit than an AoH would itself.

If it's for the sake of balancing and not being OP, then the other augs will have to fall in line behind the UAoH in order for UAoH to become a viable aug to consider. Sure there might be alien augs that could replace it (Like Vaidya Bhava), but it doesn't make sense for the UAoH to be on the same level as an AoH.

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Wed Sep 21, 2016 10:07 pm
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Post Re: Hober's Tentative Class Augmenter Changes
I talked with Hober and most of the people we communicated with agreed that if the class augs (Prof/Apt/Prow/Mast) give a strong foundation of stats, then the Art of/Ultimate Art of augs should give different stats and avoid the "I'm an upgrade to Mastery augs" vibe they currently give.

At the same time, the Ultimate Art of Sharpshooting should not be a Hantr Psu clone.

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Thu Sep 22, 2016 3:14 am
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Post Re: Hober's Tentative Class Augmenter Changes
Tron20 wrote:
Ultimate Art Of Healing should have:
1) More trans power OR Include damage and lower trans power just a bit so that it's better than AoH.
2) Increase shield to be either equal to or a little greater than AoH.
3) It needs trans efficiency.
4) Maybe less RoF

Reasons:
1) UAoH has the same amount of trans power as an AoH (AoH: Damage 10% +25% trans power = 35% trans power = UAoH.) You get nothing better over the AoH. Only losing damage on other weapons, not that ShMs use damaging weapons in the first place.
2) Why does a T22 aug give less shields than its predecessor: a T20 aug?
3) Without eff that resist to damage (Although it includes all damages) is basically giving you 12% trans Eff vs the 20% that AoH has. You should increase the Trans Eff on the UAoH and keep the resist (If it's OP then lower the resist). Despite ShMs having a bunch of HPS and regen, I've seen setups still break because of not enough Eff.
4) Less RoF so it doesn't become too powerful an augmenter all on its own, especially since some T22 alien augs provide a good amount of RoF.

I haven't really looked into what other ShMs are augged with, but when I was crunching numbers and considering my aug setups for T22, I didn't even look at UAoH since it's basically a different AoH providing almost less benifit than an AoH would itself.

If it's for the sake of balancing and not being OP, then the other augs will have to fall in line behind the UAoH in order for UAoH to become a viable aug to consider. Sure there might be alien augs that could replace it (Like Vaidya Bhava), but it doesn't make sense for the UAoH to be on the same level as an AoH.


AoH was probably one of the very best shm augs between t20 and t21.

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Thu Sep 22, 2016 8:30 am
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Post Re: Hober's Tentative Class Augmenter Changes
If the class rescalling is going to be the same at end game why are you even touching the ultimate augs? Most of those augs are completely balanced with the exception of UAoSs and UAoC and maybe UAoFk. Every other aug is commenly used in setups right now. So sick of all these unnecessary changes...

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Thu Sep 22, 2016 11:20 am
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Post Re: Hober's Tentative Class Augmenter Changes
redalert150 wrote:
If the class rescalling is going to be the same at end game why are you even touching the ultimate augs? Most of those augs are completely balanced with the exception of UAoSs and UAoC and maybe UAoFk. Every other aug is commenly used in setups right now. So sick of all these unnecessary changes...


That's a good point. I'd recommend against making any changes to endgame class-locked augs that are somewhat broadly in use right now.

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Thu Sep 22, 2016 11:37 am
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Post Re: Hober's Tentative Class Augmenter Changes
redalert150 wrote:
If the class rescalling is going to be the same at end game why are you even touching the ultimate augs? Most of those augs are completely balanced with the exception of UAoSs and UAoC and maybe UAoFk. Every other aug is commenly used in setups right now. So sick of all these unnecessary changes...


I'll find out which augs are being commonly used and strike those off of my list.

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Thu Sep 22, 2016 12:06 pm
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Post Re: Hober's Tentative Class Augmenter Changes
MasterTrader wrote:
redalert150 wrote:
If the class rescalling is going to be the same at end game why are you even touching the ultimate augs? Most of those augs are completely balanced with the exception of UAoSs and UAoC and maybe UAoFk. Every other aug is commenly used in setups right now. So sick of all these unnecessary changes...


I'll find out which augs are being commonly used and strike those off of my list.


*cough* AoD is used on every zerker ever *cough*


Thu Sep 22, 2016 12:14 pm
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Post Re: Hober's Tentative Class Augmenter Changes
ShawnMcCall wrote:
MasterTrader wrote:
redalert150 wrote:
If the class rescalling is going to be the same at end game why are you even touching the ultimate augs? Most of those augs are completely balanced with the exception of UAoSs and UAoC and maybe UAoFk. Every other aug is commenly used in setups right now. So sick of all these unnecessary changes...


I'll find out which augs are being commonly used and strike those off of my list.


*cough* AoD is used on every zerker ever *cough*


I think that the AoD change is a buff, do you disagree that it is a buff?

Art of Destruction: Shield +50%, Energy +60%, Hostility +40%, Weapon Hold +30%, Electric Tempering -25%, Damage +10%, Rate of Fire +5%

Tentative Art of Destruction: Shield +70%, Damage +30%, Energy +60%, Hostility +30%, Weapon Hold +30%, Electric Tempering -10%, Resistance to Damage +12%

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Last edited by MasterTrader on Thu Sep 22, 2016 4:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Thu Sep 22, 2016 12:20 pm
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Post Re: Hober's Tentative Class Augmenter Changes
No, because the aug is not used for shields or tanking, it is primarily used for Elec, which zerks desperately need, which you gutted. And the reason you gave me on Discord is "Because zerker class skills don't give -elec temp", which is a really dumb fucking reason because the art augs were not made to mimic class skills they were made to offer the things they needed that were not provided by class skills.

It is a beef for whatever specific setup you have in mind. But for players looking for a way to somehow sustain their setup? You made it into a hunk of shit.

Everything you added is easily obtainable through either a zerker mast or Combined Aspects. But a decent aug that gives considerable hostility and considerable elec temp, and weapon hold exists no where else in the game. So you took a unique and useful aug and made it into another boring one that does what all the augs around it already did.


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Post Re: Hober's Tentative Class Augmenter Changes
Pontius123 wrote:
I talked with Hober and most of the people we communicated with agreed that if the class augs (Prof/Apt/Prow/Mast) give a strong foundation of stats, then the Art of/Ultimate Art of augs should give different stats and avoid the "I'm an upgrade to Mastery augs" vibe they currently give.

At the same time, the Ultimate Art of Sharpshooting should not be a Hantr Psu clone.


Sounds reasonable.

redalert150 wrote:
If the class rescalling is going to be the same at end game why are you even touching the ultimate augs? Most of those augs are completely balanced with the exception of UAoSs and UAoC and maybe UAoFk. Every other aug is commenly used in setups right now. So sick of all these unnecessary changes...


I still wouldn't throw out looking over the augmenters. If Mast and related augs are a foundation stats, then some of those Art/Ultimate augs will need changes so they aren't just an upgrade to the Mastery augs.

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Thu Sep 22, 2016 12:42 pm
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Post Re: Hober's Tentative Class Augmenter Changes
ShawnMcCall wrote:
No, because the aug is not used for shields or tanking, it is primarily used for Elec, which zerks desperately need, which you gutted. And the reason you gave me on Discord is "Because zerker class skills don't give -elec temp", which is a really dumb fucking reason because the art augs were not made to mimic class skills they were made to offer the things they needed that were not provided by class skills.

It is a beef for whatever specific setup you have in mind. But for players looking for a way to somehow sustain their setup? You made it into a hunk of shit.

Everything you added is easily obtainable through either a zerker mast or Combined Aspects. But a decent aug that gives considerable hostility and considerable elec temp, and weapon hold exists no where else in the game. So you took a unique and useful aug and made it into another boring one that does what all the augs around it already did.


1: To better explain what I mean, my goal was to make class augmenters strengthen the classes strengths. If classes wanted to shore up weaknesses they would look outside of their class augmenter bonuses. The reason why I thought this was a good idea is because my idea was that class augmenters would give you more of what you're good at, while Art of Augmenters would do that and give you some of what you need.

For example...

Tentative Berserker Mastery: Shield +70%, Damage +30%, Energy +60%, Hostility +30%, Weapon Hold +30%, Resistance to Damage +10%

Original Berserker Mastery: Shield +60%, Energy +70%, Hostility +38%, Weapon Hold +30%, Electric Tempering -25%

I can agree that my stats on the Tentative Berserker Mastery and Tentative Art of Destruction aren't different enough, and that's why I've shown this to everyone because its REALLY hard to go over a bunch of augmenters at once without messing something up.

2:I prefer electric tempering on my Berserker because I hate running of of electricity, so I sacrifice damage (Which would help me generate even more hostility...) so I can constantly fire sebastopol weapons and be tanky. That new augmenter is not my preference, The thing about lower level gameplay is that you need to be able to kill the target you're fighting before they kill you, electric tempering does not help you kill your target before they kill you. I found this out by talking to people who have played/are playing Berserker at a lower level.

3:There is electric tempering on the augmenter, should I change the stats on the augmenter even more to something? Please give me suggestions because I can do something with number suggestions, that's the whole reason I put numbers out.

4:There is damage on the augmenter, this increases your DPE and DPS while not affecting your EPS. Rate of Fire increases your DPS, increases your EPS, and doesn't affect your DPE. Electric tempering doesn't affect your DPS, lowers your EPS and increases your DPE. Damage is superior to Electric Tempering and Rate of fire for increasing your DPS. Electric tempering turns your Berserker from upfront damage to more consistent damage over time, so instead of a spike in the beginning of combat followed by an evening out of damage you get a pretty consistent line.

That's a different way of playing a Berserker than you get from the class bonuses, and I think there are already plenty of augmenters at various techs that will allow you to do that. I can post those augmenters if you would like.

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Last edited by MasterTrader on Sat Sep 24, 2016 2:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Thu Sep 22, 2016 1:16 pm
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Post Re: Hober's Tentative Class Augmenter Changes
redalert150 wrote:
If the class rescalling is going to be the same at end game why are you even touching the ultimate augs? Most of those augs are completely balanced with the exception of UAoSs and UAoC and maybe UAoFk. Every other aug is commenly used in setups right now. So sick of all these unnecessary changes...


Per our conversation earlier, I thought to pose this to the community at large. I'm going to share comparisons of the augmenters that I've tentatively posted.

Ultimate Art of Sharpshooting: Damage +50%, Visibility -50%, Radar +80%, Range +45%
Tentative Ultimate Art of Sharpshooting: Tracking +25%, Damage +50%, Visibility -50%, Radar +50%, Range +50%, Hostility -15%, Critical Hit Chance +5%

Ultimate Art of Gunnery: Damage 35%, Hull Space 20%, Range 32%, Weapon Hold 50%, Elec Temp -30%
Tentative: Ultimate Art of Gunnery: Damage 50%, Hull Space 20%, Range 20%, Energy Recharge 10%, Hostility +20%, Weapon Hold 30%, Elec Temp -30%

For example: I do not understand how this would make the Ultimate Art of Gunnery augmenter worse, I disagree with you and you disagree with me. Would someone else be willing to state why they think this augmenter would be worse if I made these changes to it? I'm not saying Red is 100% wrong, I just don't see why and in going over our conversations I do not see any reasons given for why -12% range and -20% Weapon Hold in exchange for the stats it has been given (15% Damage, 10% Energy Recharge, and the currently useless Hostility stat...which I added AFTER I checked everything else) is worse.

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Thu Sep 22, 2016 4:37 pm
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Post Re: Hober's Tentative Class Augmenter Changes
MasterTrader wrote:
redalert150 wrote:
If the class rescalling is going to be the same at end game why are you even touching the ultimate augs? Most of those augs are completely balanced with the exception of UAoSs and UAoC and maybe UAoFk. Every other aug is commenly used in setups right now. So sick of all these unnecessary changes...


Per our conversation earlier, I thought to pose this to the community at large. I'm going to share comparisons of the augmenters that I've tentatively posted.

Ultimate Art of Sharpshooting: Damage +50%, Visibility -50%, Radar +80%, Range +45%
Tentative Ultimate Art of Sharpshooting: Tracking +25%, Damage +50%, Visibility -50%, Radar +50%, Range +50%, Hostility -15%, Critical Hit Chance +5%

Ultimate Art of Gunnery: Damage 35%, Hull Space 20%, Range 32%, Weapon Hold 50%, Elec Temp -30%
Tentative: Ultimate Art of Gunnery: Damage 50%, Hull Space 20%, Range 20%, Energy Recharge 10%, Hostility +20%, Weapon Hold 30%, Elec Temp -30%

For example: I do not understand how this would make the Ultimate Art of Gunnery augmenter worse, I disagree with you and you disagree with me. Would someone else be willing to state why they think this augmenter would be worse if I made these changes to it? I'm not saying Red is 100% wrong, I just don't see why and in going over our conversations I do not see any reasons given for why -12% range and -20% Weapon Hold in exchange for the stats it has been given (15% Damage, 10% Energy Recharge, and the currently useless Hostility stat...which I added AFTER I checked everything else) is worse.


Personally, I think those changes are beneficial to those Augmenters, no one that I know uses UAoSS, and I think the changes to that augmenter will make it far more useful. As for UAoG, I do know of a few individuals who use it as is, now I don't know their reasons for doing so over other augmenters, but from my point of view a beef of that augmenter is also in order. As far as I can tell those proposed stats appear to be acceptable. However, I probably missed something and someone else will give an opinion that brings to light an unforeseen issue. :P

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