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Post Data on the sad weakness of FC combat slaves
(This is a long post intended to provide useful data for those interested. You can jump to the TLDR summary below if you are not interested in that, though please make your replies informed based on numbers and data.)

I think most FC's would prefer not to just be wild slave escorts, and with the recent wild slot nerf, I am hopeful that means FC's will be adjusted in another manner to compensate. I have personally given up on fighters ever being useful, since even the ideas floating around still make it so an FC with maxed fighter skill still does less than or equal damage to missile spamming.

The main thing that needs to be adjusted is FC combat slaves since as it stands now, they are far weaker than zerker or SHM slaves. This is slightly depressing since both zerks and SHm at least have a very useful role outside of their slaves, FC's not so much except for aura. See info below.

If you look at the following 3 classes and take half the skill bonuses from focus, class, and tertiary skills which transfer to slaves, and then add the skill bonuses which translate directly benefits slaves in those cases, you get the following for these 3 classes:

Zerk slaves end up getting (for heavy fighters)
:

Offense:
+100 multifire
+60 dmg
+40% max energy
+25% weapon hold

Defense:
+30% shields
+50% damage resistance

Other:
-30% size from equipped items
+20% hostility

Shield Monkey slaves get:

Offense:
+75% damage

Defense:
+75% shields
+65% shield regen
+additional damage resistance from being able to use compressed dampeners+ which never blow up
+having a ShM to heal them

Other:
+90% hull capacity for support freighters (+40% hull capacity for heavy fighters or cap ships)

FC slaves get:

20% to all basic stats for cap ships from fleet focus bonus (for cap ships) but this doe not affect damage or rate of fire.
30% to all combat stats for all ship types from slave mastery (this includes damage and rate of fire)
+100% to rad damage

Breaking this down you can derive from this roughly for FC slaves:

Offense:

+50% energy (40% only for heavy fighters and freighter slaves)
+50% energy regen (40% only for heavy fighters and freighter slaves)
+30% damage
+30% ROF
+36% damage for FC damage aura for heavy fighters and freighters (0% for cap ships unless you have the advanced subskill Fleet Admiral)
+100% rad damage

Defense:

+50% shields (40% only for heavy fighters and freighter slaves)
+50% shields regen (40% only for heavy fighters and freighter slaves)

Other:

+134% capacity for cap ships (+82% only for heavy fighters and freighters) Note the fleet bonus is multiplied by the slave mastery bonus here to arrive at these numbers and tested to confirm.
+30 to +50% to other random stats like thrust, turning, radar, tracking, hostility etc.

As for a raw damage summary on real slaves my current PBF slaves are sporting 2x CAL + Conclusion Aug, Zarkara Kostha, and ZBS.

- When MF firing their most damaging weapon, dual emp rays, they get a measly 17.5k dps each sustained over 10 mil damage on the test targets, this includes the Fleet admiral aura bonus.
-After they bank and are firing only on regen, that dips down to 13.5k dps. So yes quite sad.
-I havent tested non-rad weaps but it would most likely be significantly lower from the lack of +100% rad damage bonus.

Conclusion thoughts from this and TLDR summary:

On offense FC non-wild slaves are surprisingly no better than ShM slaves and worse in my opinion than zerk slaves :/ Energy regen in fact their only real advantage. But the flat 60% damage + 100% multifire the zerk slaves get puts it far above this and allows you the freedom to MF while using a more interesting controlbot combo on your slave. Even the Shield Monkey slaves with its +75% damage is comparable to what the FC gets with damage aura, but if using a different aura, then SHM slave is superior. The only saving grace is the rad bonus for FC but it is such a niche bonus since it only affects one weapon type. Keep in mind if you dual fire rad weaps on a PBF though your slaves basically become useless if you fight a high rad resist AI, making FC slaves even more situational. Zerk slaves with +weapon hold which allow you to carry more varied damage types would outperform FC slaves against a wider variety of AI.

On defense the FC slaves are the weakest of the three. ShM ones get more shields, more shield regen, and the ability to use compressed+ dampeners which never blow up and add damage resistance. And lets face it, they have a ShM healing them. The zerk slaves get a notable +30% shields and a massive +50% damage resistance which is preferable to the FC shield bonus.

My recommendation following the wild slave slot nerf, is for the devs to use this opportunity to put the "fleet" back in Fleet commander and buff FC combat slave bonuses significantly both on offense and defense, since currently other classes already have better slaves than us, and a MUCH more useful primary role for their ship also.

Thanks.


Sat Oct 29, 2016 9:26 am
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Post Re: Data on the sad weakness of FC combat slaves
My opinion:

FC slaves -- Best all round slave, best natural regen because FCs don't have healing output of ShMs/Engineers. Sustained DPS only 25% better than ShM and Burst damage roughly 75% of Zerk/Gunner, but features range, speed, and the regen to survive on their own while the FC orchestrates the battlefield around his ship.

Gunner slaves -- Massive, but unscaling damage output. Huge versatility, but a LOT less versatile if anything has chain/splash weapons which suppress missile usage.

Zerk slaves -- Best burst damage, good versatility, but horrendously slow and no natural regen. Best for close quarter fights where you have healers present.

ShM slaves -- Strong damage bonus, most shields, and ShM is present for heals. Slow ass slaves, though. Bad sustain and lacks Zerk burst. Best for grinding down enemies.

Engineer slaves -- Extreme versatility because bonus slave tweak, but nonexistent bonus stats outside some resists. Best for constantly changing environment where you need backup as you deploy and redeploy drones.

After reading FP: FC combat slaves need a buff. Slave Mastery used to be 2%.

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Sat Oct 29, 2016 11:57 pm
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Post Re: Data on the sad weakness of FC combat slaves
How about adding a line of Low range higher dps Or Large size higher dps radiation weps capship locked/ fc locked, So that its more viable to use mainships to actually dps rather than sit and look pretty. I think its just a better idea to give class's more options.

FC slaves have Always been the best all round slaves to use, And to all those unhappy with the loss of Two wildslaves try using fighters/missiles/drones, They actually exist.


Sun Oct 30, 2016 9:42 am
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Post Re: Data on the sad weakness of FC combat slaves
Radiation jackhammers are about to be added.


Sun Oct 30, 2016 2:20 pm
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Post Re: Data on the sad weakness of FC combat slaves
The weakness of FC is largely because of ship choice. Considering they get bonuses for capital ships they are effectively locked into them, because other choices get less bonuses.
Now what do capships have?
*Low augs. Standard on ships is 3, but FC have 2 because capital ships.
*High tanking(bank)
*Take a while to run out of energy
None of those gives them high damage on its own. So logically we should turn to something that only capital ships can do. Gunners have deathblossom, but what do FCs have? Well, fighters. Except that fighters die in 1 shot later on and deal pitiful damage compared to missiles, despite FC getting no bonuses at all to missiles.
Capital ships also have more superitem slots, which FCs are entirely unable to use on slaves, because FC slaves get no offensive superitems at all. (No, the radiation damage thing is a joke. It doesn't hit anything)

So for fighters what's necessary is to either make their deaths less relevant(fighter generators) or to make some fighters that are tanky enough to actually survive a hit, perhaps at the cost of less damage per slot. The best way to make fighters more tanky would be making multiple-slot fighters - they will be tankier simply because they take more slots and thus combine the tanking of several smaller fighters.
They also need to scale better. Perhaps have them come with inbuilt augs or something on higher techs.

The damage issue of FCs could also be reduced by adding capital-ship locked weapons that are less efficient(because you will sustain for a while anyway), but deal much higher DPS. I'd especially like to see real pulseguns for capital ships, because right now the only pulseguns they can use are designed for smaller ships. Heck, something like a smaller capital-locked Ur Pulse would be ideal in many cases.


Fri Nov 18, 2016 1:37 pm
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Post Re: Data on the sad weakness of FC combat slaves
Im all in for fc buffs, but we need to wait untill the class rescaling happen to see if anything will change


Sat Nov 19, 2016 5:15 pm
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Post Re: Data on the sad weakness of FC combat slaves
Sypom3 wrote:
Im all in for fc buffs, but we need to wait untill the class rescaling happen to see if anything will change



Class rescaling isn't changing overall stats... it's changing the values received at each level so that low level players can use more that just 2 classes to level effectively. So it has no bearing on this thread.


Sat Nov 19, 2016 8:12 pm
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Post Re: Data on the sad weakness of FC combat slaves
Thats what you think shawn


Sun Nov 20, 2016 2:44 am
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Post Re: Data on the sad weakness of FC combat slaves
Sypom3 wrote:
Thats what you think shawn


The class rescaling is endgame neutral. It's intended to change gameplay only for lower leveled players.

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Sun Nov 20, 2016 3:21 am
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Post Re: Data on the sad weakness of FC combat slaves
Thats what you think too, sundog


Sun Nov 20, 2016 7:56 am
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Post Re: Data on the sad weakness of FC combat slaves
No u


Sun Nov 20, 2016 8:06 am
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Post Re: Data on the sad weakness of FC combat slaves
Even looking at your own data it's pretty clear FC slaves are superior. They may not be one shotting everything you come across but they are superior to any other type of slave.

I also love how you dismiss auras having any or very little significance and not once did you mention the ability to amp your auras.

The dps output of FCs is somewhat balanced to me right now. FC is not meant to be one of the top dps classes, which is what it was with 5 wild bots. It's role is more support based then anything. However you can easily make a very viable offensive solo FC still that is capable of killing pretty much anything other classes can. You FCs just got use to doing a unreasonable amount of dps as FC with your 5 wild bots.

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Sun Nov 20, 2016 10:10 am
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Post Re: Data on the sad weakness of FC combat slaves
Compared to an offensive Shield Monkey setup, before FC got their fighters reworked, FC did less damage to a support class in a support/healer setup.

Range, Sustain, Regen, and Speed are downtrodden by raw damage output, which ShM, Gunner, and Zerk slaves do better at than FC slaves. If it wasn't for the stupidly slow movement of most ShM slaves, you'd see more ShMs than FCs.


Sun Nov 20, 2016 12:47 pm
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Post Re: Data on the sad weakness of FC combat slaves
uhm zerk level 1 , slaves already MF?

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Thu Dec 01, 2016 12:30 pm
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Post Re: Data on the sad weakness of FC combat slaves
riel017 wrote:
uhm zerk level 1 , slaves already MF?


huh?

These figures all assume level 20 skills in everything, since that is what it seems devs look at when balancing.


Thu Dec 01, 2016 12:54 pm
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