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Post Re: Moving forward with the endgame - mods & content
TLDR this is a poorly thought out crock. Fix the 19-21 power gap, then build new content.

I just read a page long cringe fest sobbing for tech 23....and am not amused.

1) I could not care less what your credentials are. I have read PHD economists who I genuinely consider utter fools because they place their ideology ahead of facts.

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The first problem is that the game has absolutely no sense of direction.


Its called a sandbox MMO, that kinda goes with the territory. If you mean the development has no sense of direction; then non sequiter. Simply because you do not like its direction does not mean it has no direction.

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Industrial Commods have massively screwed up the endgame economy. Players with enough resources to begin with were able to pull in 100b+ a day.


Lets check that shall we? Silicon is the most overused and over abundant commodity in the game. Now i have spent hours listening to CLXXX complain that teir 0 are the only IC's worth building, to Sentient chat-bots are 20,000 each. YOu are currently asserting that on player could build 5million sentient chat bots daily, and require close to half of the bases in WS be available to a single player. Certain teams (Cough, Cough) can get away with this presently because galaxies cannot be agro without declaring war, but once this is implemented next uni, problem solved.

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If we take the mentality that new players can't ever reach the current point that endgame players have managed to get to
we would be committing the logical fallacy called Begging the Question. You have offered no evidence that someone could get 100 billion a day with IC commodities, and i have cited both anecdotes and Math against you.

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The focus at the moment is extremely self-destructive and goes against basically every principle of good game design.
Again, begging the question. Destructive how? What principles of good game design? I will get into more of this later as you start proposing things. This entire paragraph is a series of begged questions with zero argument supplied to support them, so i am skipping the rest of it, other then to say i have REPEATEDLY had conversations about tech 23 with markos and hober, and every time it comes down to "We have to fix the tech 19-21 gap first".

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it would have to be immune to the problems which have thrown off game balance: mainly bindomite and stupid balance decisions (HM, Prawn). The best way to do this would be to make the gear from T23 token-driven and about 15-25% stronger at the highest tier than current unmodded T22 gear.


NON FUCKING SEQUITER! Seriously, this sentence right here sends me into a rage! What the hell does making the equipment token driven have to do with the 4 aug slots on the prawn? Or the HM? Why would i trade my bindo gear which gives me a 20%+ bonus for a tech higher with only a 15% bonus? ALl you are doing here is creating ANOTHER 19-21 power gap at a higher tech repeating EXACTLY the problem we are currently having, and making a string of pedantic fictions to do it.
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It would also have to be neurobound, or ideally operate with a new mod system.
You are insane. The point of an MMO is to work with other people, not steamroll everyone in front of you. Tradeing equiment is essential to this, so much so that the first MMO's (which had no trading system) where flooded with scam reports becouse people would try to trade by dropping the items and they woudl get stolen. This is why EVERY MMO EVERYWHERE has a formal market system built in. ALL OF THEM. I cannot even imagine what possessed you to think making all items nuerobound was a good idea.

I am going to take a second to illistrate exactly how stupid this is. Right now, you need a fire weapon to complete mira at level, its the only way. Now, while you get a fire weapon in artcia, it is woefully underpowered and has a hard time killing level 40 ships, much less level 150. TO kill mira, you need the Vulcan weapons. ANd since early game progression moves so quickly, it is generally easier to buy them off someone else then get them yourself. This is a consistent problem thought most of the game, in fact i am pretty certain the game was designed this way on purpose to encourage player to player trade.

I am going to go through this list, and probably give myself an migrane doing it.

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The players who lucked out and got massive mods can now upgrade their gear.
WHy? No i am asking, Why would i trade a well modded gear that gives me, say, 30% or more bonuses for a unmoddable gear with 15% bonuses?

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Players who haven’t got the resources to sink into bindo’ing several hundred pieces of hydra gear can now reach an even footing in terms of gear power.
Hydra gear was supposed to get MF removed....what the bork happened to that?

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Players who don’t MC can now reliably get the gear they want, making non-MCing viable.
HOw is this even a problem? No, i am asking, i am used to playing RO and watching teams do boss runs every hour on the hour for WEEKS until every member had the gear they needed. If this playerbase is so shit that they cannot understand having your team member properly geared is useful, then coddling them is not the answer. ANd before you cite time constraints, I drive truck 70 hours a week. Schedule your runs.

Quote:
Encourages players to work together on runs
Begging the question again. WHy would this have this effect? If anything, i would expect the opposite to be true, players now have less of a reason to work together, since EVERYTHING drops tokens. They will simply solo the lowest level token mob they can, and squad runs will be a thing of the past. The thing about mob specific drops is you can gauge the item to the creature. If you want AOIE, you have to kill red of black to get it. If you could kill a hundred scrupplings, why would you bother organizing a squad for those two?

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One of the problems with Olympus is that it is next to impossible for individual players to get high-tier gear,

Good, this is an MMO, find a team and organize a squad. Your entire premise seems to rest upon the notion that you should not have to work with other people in an MMO. The entire point of the game is to work with other people, thats not bad design, that's good design!

Further, this directly contradicts your previous point. Either you need a squad to do the content, or you do not. Arguing that your change will mean people no longer need a squad to do content but will encourage squad content runs is just gibbering incoherence.

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Essentially this means that as long as a player is regularly completing their lockouts, they should theoretically be able to upgrade their character at the exact same rate as everyone else.


I am highlighting this one in red because you just proved the point i was making above. NO ONE IS GOING TO DO BOSSES OR MINI BOSSES IF THEY CAN DO A SIMPLE SMASH AND GRAB AND GET THE SAME HIGH TEIR ITEMS.

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It lowers the RNG aspect in Star Sonata, which is already ridiculous.
It erases the RNG aspect entirely, while handing high level players a gimme lower level players do not enjoy. And no, the RNG (Random Number Generator) aspect is not ridiculous, go play a korean MMO sometime.

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It opens up options for safely revising content down the track without pissing half the playerbase off.
I am not even going to dignify this with an answer.

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Before everyone inevitably shouts OMGPOWERGAP – this system is pretty much used by every MMO ever.
Bullshit. Please name a single MMO where monsters drop tokens which can be exchanged for untradable equipment, and i will point you to an MMO that will be out of business in 6 months. YOu make a broad point about expansions generally while addressing none of the actual changes you are proposing. This is called a Bait and Switch. And you are called a disingenuous ass hat.

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Tue Jan 10, 2017 2:49 pm
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Post Re: Moving forward with the endgame - mods & content
World of Warcraft have had a token system for additional boss loot rolls since Mists of Pandaria in 2012.

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Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:24 pm
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Post Re: Moving forward with the endgame - mods & content
Moving backwards with the start game - mods and no content
T23, shit when they gonna finish t1!
This bizatch needs players


Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:55 pm
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Post Re: Moving forward with the endgame - mods & content
lrellok wrote:
TLDR this is a poorly thought out crock. Fix the 19-21 power gap, then build new content.

I just read a page long cringe fest sobbing for tech 23....and am not amused.

I don't think you're reading it correctly, nor do you know that this is merely a suggestion.

Credentials are credentials, you goto a doctor, because he is a doctor, if he sucks then you payed him for nothing, RIP you (I doubt you've read economics PhDs by the way you have responded to this thread).

The arguments as to why something would work are carefully explained, if you fail to see that, then you should read it again.

The fact that you get tokens from killing the bosses means, you have to kill the bosses, your argument of saying that people wouldn't do any content just means you haven't read anything this thread has to say. The tokens would be gotten from a boss kill, which means from a mission that triggers the boss kill, just like how Twisted works currently. The fact that it can potentially drop some T0-T1 stuff you can upgrade with said tokens makes it so the content would be very popular, but is just an option.

I don't think you get the power gap thing he mentioned, because people have some 2-3 modded high end T22 items that are very rare. That means that the newer people would never be able to get to them, they could but the chance is so too low. This thread is actually for people like you, not for him because he is sitting at the end game where he just bindo's a bunch of items every day in the hope to get better stats.

Every sandbox has some sense of direction. Minecraft for example has the direction of surviving, how to play after you can survive you decide on you own what to do but it still gives a line to hold on to, called achievements. Here in Star Sonata ones you get out of the Nexus a new player has no idea where to go to, they don't see anything obvious to go to. Nor do they have a line to hold on to, like achievements in Minecraft. Which is bad, people are patient enough to search for 15ish min: if they have no progression, they will just stop. If you think it's a good then that's your opinion, but don't slander other people that have the opposite opinion of yours.

About Industrial Commodities, he was talking when they first came out; but since you are slandering Masterful so much so here some background:
You have no idea hom many credits have been gotten from Industrial Commodities, your math is flawed, there aren't only Sentient Chatbots. He says people earned 100B a day because he actually seen it with his own eyes, even the devs know about it. Everyone knows some people earned that much per day previous universe. Your source of CLXIII is flawed, which I wouldn't expect less off.

You don't seem to understand that what he means by "it has to be well designed not like HM and Prawn" it means that the content made from T23 is actually well designed, it has nothing to do with the tokens. It's stated that the items gotten from the tokens are balanced and not like HM and Prawn, the HM and Prawn have nothing to do with the tokens.

The power gap that is being talked about is the power gap acquired through Bindomite. The fact that people can just buy all of the market and Bindomite them all, means that a new player won't be able to buy said item, or if he can not in the quantity that end game players can. There is nothing mentioned about the power gap between T19-22. It's just said that T23 can be made in a way that it is balanced inside T23 and is independant on stuff like Bindomite or some broken items like the HM and Prawn. Which enables to move the end game to a balanced tech, so everything before that tech can be balanced accordingly, and then nerf T23 when the previous phase is done. Like mentioned in the main thread: it is something that World of Warcraft uses, and it's not like they are dying right now.

What he means by making it neurobound is that you can't bindomite the item, because if you read a bit further ahead he gives the alternative for a new modding system. It almost seems like you didn't read the post at all.

With making T23 like 15-20% stronger means that the other people can get to the end game much easier. If you have a T22 item with mods that make it 25-30% stronger that makes it so the other people that didn't luck out on mods get to a 10% difference at the place of a 30% difference. It's not about the ones with good mods, it's about the ones that have bad mods.

About Hydra Gear: reread the paragraph above. It's just an example of items that make so everything gets unbalanced in ways that weren't expected initially, through Bindomite or unexpected meta that players have figured out.

This game has alot of issue for solo players. Bringing solo players on your run just means you get less loot. And less loot means less potential items you can Bindomite to actually get stronger yourself. With the token system everyone gets the same amount of loot, and the whole team gets stronger at the same time.

You think everything drops tokens, but only bosses should drop Tokens, and like Twisted should be gotten from missions. Which, again, makes so the whole squad gets loot, and progresses at the same time. The people that MC, will still MC, but the solo players will now be able to hop on runs that people MC. It's maybe not explicetly said how you get said Tokens, but Twisted got referenced so you should be able to guess what is meant.

Finding a team is fine and all, but you make it sound like you're the only one that needs the item. If, again, there was a Token System, everyone would get Tokens from a mission, like Twisted, and nobody would have to fight to get an item. The progression curve wouldn't be so steep after T20 this way. When I was solo player, I had to hope it drops and I had to hope nobody else needed the item. With Tokens I can just grab it myself if it doesn't get dropped, or if it dropped and somebody else got it, I can still grab it with Tokens. If you're lucky you get the drop, but again this isn't what this thread is about.

RNG aspect is nice, but if you see people luck out with some 4 modded drops from Kidd, and then Bindomite it and get an extra 3 mods on top of that: it just makes you want to quit. RNG is still there in some aspect, and it could be implemented in a new modding system, which is mentioned in the main thread. For the "not doing any bosses part" refer somewhere above where I explained the Tokens, how they should work and how they work for Twisted. If we use Twisted as an example here, for the RNG aspect, you can get a Twisted Honey Blueprint with Tokens, but you still need the Remains to be able to build it. So there is still a RNG aspect, but it's much lower than before.


Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:35 pm
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Post Re: Moving forward with the endgame - mods & content
100b+ a day from ICs was very possible when it was first implemented, in fact 200b+ a day was possible once everything was established enough.

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Post Re: Moving forward with the endgame - mods & content
Masterful wrote:
100b+ a day from ICs was very possible when it was first implemented, in fact 200b+ a day was possible once everything was established enough.


Pretty much. I talked to a dev about the broken stupid shit that was IC at the time and he said it was fully intended you could do 200b/day. Go figure this turned out to be one of the two devs that designed IC and the one that saw nothing wrong with developers cheating.

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Wed Jan 11, 2017 2:56 am
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Post Re: Moving forward with the endgame - mods & content
how much can you make now then gurus?


Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:30 am
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Post Re: Moving forward with the endgame - mods & content
I don't know how you magicians pulled that off. I had over 230 kits down that uni of which a good 180 were exe and they produced all kinds of ics along with 18k stable prom and I barely was able to get 75b a day while selling everything. And a good 20b came from prom only in that sum.

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Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:40 am
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Post Re: Moving forward with the endgame - mods & content
I've had unis with 300+ kits, pleb.


Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:51 am
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Post Re: Moving forward with the endgame - mods & content
Pontius123 wrote:
World of Warcraft have had a token system for additional boss loot rolls since Mists of Pandaria in 2012.


Fantasic. Had he proposed creating a neurotweek that doubled the drop rate for a short duration, i would have no objection to that. Had he proposed creating a nuerotweek that halved the lockout timer, or even reduced the lockout timer, this would have my full throated support!.

What Masterful seems to be proposing, as best i can read, is taking the sanctimonious garbage fire that is the Mira repeatable and making it standard for all mini boss drops.

Lemme be very clear here. In the amount of time it take to get a Paxiums Celest out of Mira, i can build a full set of Jungle Combat Bots for all 5 of my characters AND get a nearly full set of Doomed gear for each of them (those radars are tough).

And that is my problem. Nothing you are doing is making the absurd mission times any less absurd. You are talking about tokens for dailies, i am not interested in dailies in the first place. Hourlies, sure, very reasonable, but dailies? Pull the other one, it has bells on it.


Now, on to the next fellow.

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I doubt you've read economics PhDs by the way you have responded to this thread


http://imgur.com/a/U45mX

https://librivox.org/what-is-property-a ... -proudhon/

https://librivox.org/author/2426?primar ... et_results

https://librivox.org/author/2881?primar ... et_results

https://librivox.org/the-conquest-of-br ... kropotkin/

Congratulations, you have managed to entertain me.

Quote:
The arguments as to why something would work are carefully explained


No, the arguments are a series of ad hoc rationalizations and logical fallacies. That is not an explanation.

Quote:
The fact that you get tokens from killing the bosses means, you have to kill the bosses,
Entirely irrelevant to my point. You are functionally assuming that all bosses are equally difficult, something any player would happily have told you is false. If i can kill Tobal a dozen times and get Zues gear, why would i go to olympus? How are you dividing the tokens up? What range will be used at sub 23 levels? Are you basing it on gear? Equips? Level?

Quote:
This thread is actually for people like you,
which is why i am replying to it. And objecting strongly.

Quote:
Here in Star Sonata ones you get out of the Nexus a new player has no idea where to go to, they don't see anything obvious to go to.
If you get out of nexus without either a Pirate or Earthforce mission you need to complete, then you massively screwed up nexus. Which is my point, there are mission chains, and the "Direction" of the game is "Get more levels".

Quote:
About Industrial Commodities, he was talking when they first came out; but since you are slandering Masterful so much so here some background


http://wiki2.starsonata.com/index.php?t ... on=history

I helped write the wiki section when if first came out. The first wiki edits are the data i am using. And you STILL have not shown HOW that much money would have been made. Math, show me math.

Quote:
it means that the content made from T23 is actually well designed, it has nothing to do with the tokens.
I disagree, because i consider the tokens themselves to be sloppy design. The abilities of an item are not all that is relevant, as i showed above with my Pax/Mira example. The availability of the item is also relevant. An EF battleship has noticeably better stats then a Prototype, but everyone i know flies prototypes. Why? They are easy as hell to get.

Quote:
The power gap that is being talked about is the power gap acquired through Bindomite. The fact that people can just buy all of the market and Bindomite them all, means that a new player won't be able to buy said item, or if he can not in the quantity that end game players can.
I have repeatedly argued for increasing the Prospected commodities respawn rate, over repeated objections. Your proposal does nothing to solve that problem, and in fact makes it worse.

Quote:
There is nothing mentioned about the power gap between T19-22.
That is another part of my objections. You are ignoring a major problem that will impact every player long before they see bindomite as anything other then quick cash, to implement a solution to a problem most of them will never stick around long enough to have. We are not loosing players at late tech 22, we are loosing players at early tech 20 and before. t23 items are not going to solve that.

Quote:
What he means by making it neurobound is that you can't bindomite the item,


If the items where to be un-moddable, i would expect him to say that. There are items in game which cannot be moddable. There are items which are nuerobound but not modded. There are items which are modded but unbound (DSF has a base full of those). I would like to think if masterful was talking about unmoddable gear, he would have said as much. NUerobound, means not traded or exchanged. That is very, very different.

Quote:
With making T23 like 15-20% stronger means that the other people can get to the end game much easier.
Not with the 19-21/600-1000 gap they can't. Which is why that got thrown in fairly immediately.

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This game has alot of issue for solo players.
Its an MMO, that goes with the territory.

Quote:
Bringing solo players on your run just means you get less loot.
I am not even following your argument here. If you mean "Non MCers" thats a problem with agro, not the drops. You should not be able to MC a boss, it should eat your alts alive. So no, since some loot is better then no loot, you should not be getting less loot from having non MCers in your squad. Again, you are skirting the issues.

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If, again, there was a Token System, everyone would get Tokens from a mission, like Twisted, and nobody would have to fight to get an item.
Again, i am not even following you here. IF you did not get enough items on the first run, do another run. And a third, and a fourth, until you have enough items. That is the point, you are trying to skirt acting like a team with a mechanical grab bag, and a ham fisted one at that.

Masterful wrote:
100b+ a day from ICs was very possible when it was first implemented, in fact 200b+ a day was possible once everything was established enough.


Awesome....now show me the math.

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Post Re: Moving forward with the endgame - mods & content
Tbbt made a post about Metal Income. 627 million metal per day from 22 bases sitting on at least 100 extractor slots. Reduce this by 100 because that's how much the factory uses to make each Steel Girder. Use conservative Steel Girder price of 10,000 credits per, and you get 62 billion credits per day provided the station could consume all of it. Stations did not, so a conservative estimate of 50b.

FOR JUST METALS.

PER ACCOUNT.

Paladin had 8 accounts.

Tiered IC were anywhere from double to 10x better than they are now. Paladin simply extracted resources, converted them into T3s, and Sing Braked around to procure 200b+ income per day.

Part of this income came from galaxies that were 5 times better than they are now. Red Faction had a very very nice cluster of galaxies that universe.

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Wed Jan 11, 2017 5:58 am
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Post Re: Moving forward with the endgame - mods & content
Pontius123 wrote:
Paladin had 8 accounts.

Tiered IC were anywhere from double to 10x better than they are now. Paladin simply extracted resources, converted them into T3s, and Sing Braked around to procure 200b+ income per day.

Part of this income came from galaxies that were 5 times better than they are now. Red Faction had a very very nice cluster of galaxies that universe.

RIP me, Paladin scammed me big time that uni.

As for Rendghast nice I can also take pictures of literature, but that doesn't mean I can comprehend what they are writing. Your way of reacting to 1 sentensce quotes just means you didn't read shit, because everything you've commented on was explained before.

The funniest part of your post "There are unmoddable items" are either Neurobound items or Item that can't be bindomited like Overloaders, Superchargers, ... Your argument is entirely stupid. If you've written the wiki page for Industrial Commodities and you've no idea how they are OP, then congratz you've got a new skill you don't seem to know "being stupid".

Maybe next time quote some bigger chunks of text, sentensces mean nothing: you don't seem to know that yet. Here you are entertaining yourself, with some shitty screenshots since "Credentials are credentials and I don't care about credentials", to quote what you've said. Rather go to a peasant, to know what my illness is than going to the doctor, because nobody cares about their credentials. Why pay Engineers in a company, they are just credentials.

As for Darksteel: Teach me how to be as bad.


Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:15 am
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Post Re: Moving forward with the endgame - mods & content
I dunno I for one was thinking Rendhghasts posts are getting up there I was finding myself agreeing with a lot of that post .
especially the retardedness of neurobinding everything as a solution which ultimately hurts the market as a side effect reducing V, the velocity of trade.
There never was a need for an item sink, it was a money sink we needed.

Also the fact he rationalised token system cause people to grind the lowest common denominator. Thats right, I dont know if my teamies remeber me saying "I will NEVER do olympus again", I just grind tartarus over and over because it represents the most efficient / least effort route to what I want.


Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:19 am
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Post Re: Moving forward with the endgame - mods & content
sabre198 wrote:
I dunno I for one was thinking Rendhghasts posts are getting up there I was finding myself agreeing with a lot of that post .
especially the retardedness of neurobinding everything as a solution which ultimately hurts the market as a side effect reducing V, the velocity of trade.
There never was a need for an item sink, it was a money sink we needed.

Also the fact he rationalised token system cause people to grind the lowest common denominator. Thats right, I dont know if my teamies remeber me saying "I will NEVER do olympus again", I just grind tartarus over and over because it represents the most efficient / least effort route to what I want.

The token system would be implemented similar to Twisted, where you get tokens from killing the boss itself.

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Post Re: Moving forward with the endgame - mods & content
I would like to comment on one particular statement:
Quote:
This game has alot of issue for solo players. Bringing solo players on your run just means you get less loot.


Objectively, this is not true.
Bringing more characters than required to kill a boss does not have any benefits to it. Which means if someone who multiclients brings an additional person, despite being able to do the content himself just fine, he may have to split the loot with said additional person.

This situation is identical to a group of friends bringing an additional friend, despite being able to do the content by themselves. It is one additional possible recipient of loot with no additional loot being dropped.
(Note: often loot seems to be handed out on a per-player basis, rather than per-character. This system obviously hurts people who bring multiple characters the most. I find it a rather strange decision.)

The two factors that make MCing so desirable is perfect availability and, for lack of a better word, pure communism. Every character of someone who MCs an entire squad will always be available, making scheduling redundant. This is a big, big factor. Every piece of loot gained by this MC squad will most likely use it in whichever way the entire squad gets stronger. There's no rolls involved. It's all for the greater good, in a sense.

I strongly believe that a dedicated and disciplined group of solo players with council-like loot distribution would be far more effective than a single player who MCs. More involved boss fights and more additions that reward activevely playing a character (Super Items, tweaks), combined with a bigger playerbase to reduce scheduling issues and perhaps tools to assist in forming squads should aid Solo Players in their progression quite significantly.

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