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Post fix teamleaving BvB exploits or just remove all BvB limits
Honestly what is the point of having /war mechanics or restricting BvB mechanics if you can just circumvent them? Either fix them or get rid of them entirely.

I refer to the teamleaving tactics that is basically an exploit of the current game mechanics that includes:

-using non-teamed neutral characters in BvB to assist with setup in enemy war territory
-using non-team neutral chars as jump points for brakes to assist with setup in enemy war territory
-using non-team neutral chars to tractor stasis ships of an allied team to move them without retaliation when in enemy war territory
-kicking teammates so they are non-teamed and can safely move into position inside enemy territory to setup for BvB before inviting them back to attack
-using non-teamed neutral chars as tractor ships on enemy bases since current aggro formula seems not to target them
-using non-teamed neutral chars as Shield Monkeys to heal you since they currently dont seem to get base aggro when doing so.

There is no legitimate reason for any of the above activities in SS. The only purpose of these activities is to circumvent games mechanics and restrictions. If there are tactics which have have no other purpose than to get around the game mechanics why are they allowed?

The vast majority of these exploits could be resolved simply by not allowing any of the above actions when you are inside the galaxy of a team that is in an /war state.

For example I suggest:

-You shouldn't be able to join a team if you are currently inside ANY system that is owned by a team in a /war state. Going to Sol to join a team is not that big of a deal for a legit invite.
-You shouldn't be able to tractor any player owned objects (bases, stasis ships etc) if you are inside ANY system that is owned by a team in a /war state. If that teams legit needs your help they can squad you and allow it. If you want to do it otherwise you need to /war the team in which case you can tractor anything you want and take the risk.
-If you are non-teamed and inside any system in a /war state, if you heal any opposition teams you get full aggro just like the team they are at /war with. If you really want to help them, then accept the aggro or join their team.
-When you are inside any system in a /war state sing brakes jump targets should be limited to normal natural objects (planets, warps etc) or to player objects ONLY from your team. If that player wants to help you they need to join your team and accept the war risk.
-To prevent other exploits a general 24 hour delay timer between switching teams.
-Increase this to 72 hours if you are simply leaving and rejoining the same team.

I am really not sure why any of the above tactics are still allowed in the first place. Either fix, or eliminate all restrictions on /war and BvB, since it seems one can get around them all anyway if you abuse the current game mechanics.


Tue Jun 20, 2017 5:36 pm
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Post Re: fix teamleaving BvB exploits or just remove all BvB limi
q.q


Tue Jun 20, 2017 5:39 pm
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Post Re: fix teamleaving BvB exploits or just remove all BvB limi
PieizgoodP2P wrote:
q.q


Why are you crying about this suggestion? Only current abusers would not like a suggestion to fix these.


Tue Jun 20, 2017 5:48 pm
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Post Re: fix teamleaving BvB exploits or just remove all BvB limi
I think it should be like old UO faction rule set. 24hr timer after deciding to leave before fully removed, 7 day lock out from joining any oposing team. Of course, there would have to be some exceptions for someone kicked from a team, wouldnt want to give them 24hrs to screw things up.


Tue Jun 20, 2017 7:53 pm
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Post Re: fix teamleaving BvB exploits or just remove all BvB limi
dreadlordnaf wrote:
Honestly what is the point of having /war mechanics or restricting BvB mechanics if you can just circumvent them? Either fix them or get rid of them entirely.

I refer to the teamleaving tactics that is basically an exploit of the current game mechanics that includes:

-using non-teamed neutral characters in BvB to assist with setup in enemy war territory
-using non-team neutral chars as jump points for brakes to assist with setup in enemy war territory
-using non-team neutral chars to tractor stasis ships of an allied team to move them without retaliation when in enemy war territory
-kicking teammates so they are non-teamed and can safely move into position inside enemy territory to setup for BvB before inviting them back to attack
-using non-teamed neutral chars as tractor ships on enemy bases since current aggro formula seems not to target them
-using non-teamed neutral chars as Shield Monkeys to heal you since they currently dont seem to get base aggro when doing so.

There is no legitimate reason for any of the above activities in SS. The only purpose of these activities is to circumvent games mechanics and restrictions. If there are tactics which have have no other purpose than to get around the game mechanics why are they allowed?

The vast majority of these exploits could be resolved simply by not allowing any of the above actions when you are inside the galaxy of a team that is in an /war state.

For example I suggest:

-You shouldn't be able to join a team if you are currently inside ANY system that is owned by a team in a /war state. Going to Sol to join a team is not that big of a deal for a legit invite.
-You shouldn't be able to tractor any player owned objects (bases, stasis ships etc) if you are inside ANY system that is owned by a team in a /war state. If that teams legit needs your help they can squad you and allow it. If you want to do it otherwise you need to /war the team in which case you can tractor anything you want and take the risk.
-If you are non-teamed and inside any system in a /war state, if you heal any opposition teams you get full aggro just like the team they are at /war with. If you really want to help them, then accept the aggro or join their team.
-When you are inside any system in a /war state sing brakes jump targets should be limited to normal natural objects (planets, warps etc) or to player objects ONLY from your team. If that player wants to help you they need to join your team and accept the war risk.
-To prevent other exploits a general 24 hour delay timer between switching teams.
-Increase this to 72 hours if you are simply leaving and rejoining the same team.

I am really not sure why any of the above tactics are still allowed in the first place. Either fix, or eliminate all restrictions on /war and BvB, since it seems one can get around them all anyway if you abuse the current game mechanics.


I agree, would like to see what the dev's have in mind to address these issues


Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:23 pm
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Post Re: fix teamleaving BvB exploits or just remove all BvB limi
We have a project that will undoubtedly alleviate these issues, and in some cases make these issues completely unproblematic. It's currently on hold, but rest assured we are not happy with the current state of territory conflict in Star Sonata and we definitely intend to remedy these issues. When the time comes, we will share our plans well in advance of any implementation. For now, all I can say is SoonTM.

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Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:30 pm
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Post Re: fix teamleaving BvB exploits or just remove all BvB limi
MasterTrader wrote:
We have a project that will undoubtedly alleviate these issues, and in some cases make these issues completely unproblematic. It's currently on hold, but rest assured we are not happy with the current state of territory conflict in Star Sonata and we definitely intend to remedy these issues. When the time comes, we will share our plans well in advance of any implementation. For now, all I can say is SoonTM.



Aggro galaxies was supposed to be in months ago. Did they take the code out when the removed that or is there a problem with turning a switch on?

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Wed Jun 21, 2017 5:54 am
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Post Re: fix teamleaving BvB exploits or just remove all BvB limi
lrellok wrote:
MasterTrader wrote:
We have a project that will undoubtedly alleviate these issues, and in some cases make these issues completely unproblematic. It's currently on hold, but rest assured we are not happy with the current state of territory conflict in Star Sonata and we definitely intend to remedy these issues. When the time comes, we will share our plans well in advance of any implementation. For now, all I can say is SoonTM.



Aggro galaxies was supposed to be in months ago. Did they take the code out when the removed that or is there a problem with turning a switch on?


In short, aggro'd galaxies would be invulnerable to BvB since the attacking party could never get 10k out. We'll have aggro bases once we implement the new galaxy assault system. Frankly, this is the same reason we're not taken action against people briefly leaving team to position themselves so they can begin their BvB.

There is currently no way to do it properly and while we are aware of the issue and working towards an improved version to prevent sketchy things such as the ones the OP has listed from happening, we are stuck with the current design for now.

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Wed Jun 21, 2017 6:06 am
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Post Re: fix teamleaving BvB exploits or just remove all BvB limi
Can you allow Small Warp Beacons to be deployed in enemy owned galaxies and just make a notification in their team chat not unlike the one you get when your shit gets shot at?


Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:56 am
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Post Re: fix teamleaving BvB exploits or just remove all BvB limi
Max235 wrote:
Can you allow Small Warp Beacons to be deployed in enemy owned galaxies and just make a notification in their team chat not unlike the one you get when your shit gets shot at?


No because that would make border galaxies not mean anything which is not something we want.

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Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:00 am
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Post Re: fix teamleaving BvB exploits or just remove all BvB limi
It looks like DS and Hober have this thread under control, but I just want to chime in to repeat that we aren't happy about the various circumventions that are possible by leaving team. For more information on the dev team's stances, I've provided responses to each item you listed.

dreadlordnaf wrote:
-using non-teamed neutral characters in BvB to assist with setup in enemy war territory
This is undesirable but since everyone can do it, we are willing to live with it for now while we work on the new galaxy assault system.

-using non-team neutral chars as jump points for brakes to assist with setup in enemy war territory
This doesn't matter too much since you can do the same with spirits and pods without unteaming.

-using non-team neutral chars to tractor stasis ships of an allied team to move them without retaliation when in enemy war territory
This is undesirable but since those ships could have left team to avoid aggro in the first place, it falls under the first category.

-kicking teammates so they are non-teamed and can safely move into position inside enemy territory to setup for BvB before inviting them back to attack
This is a subset of the first category.

-using non-teamed neutral chars as tractor ships on enemy bases since current aggro formula seems not to target them
This won't be useful once the fix to Base Thrusters goes live.

-using non-teamed neutral chars as Shield Monkeys to heal you since they currently dont seem to get base aggro when doing so.
This is a straight up bug since healing should generate aggro.


As you can see, a few of those mechanics are considered undesirable but unproblematic since there are ways to accomplish them without leaving team. The main issue is that leaving team allows players to get beyond the range of hostile bases in order to set up an attack. As DS and Hober said, we aren't happy about this but we are willing to live with it since at least everyone is able to use this approach, and putting in aggro gal mechanics would simply make BvB impossible in most cases.

The one thing you listed which should absolutely be addressed is the lack of aggro generated from healing by off-team characters. I have no idea why they don't get aggro and will inquire about it today.

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Wed Jun 21, 2017 11:39 am
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Post Re: fix teamleaving BvB exploits or just remove all BvB limi
anilv wrote:
dreadlordnaf wrote:
-using non-team neutral chars as jump points for brakes to assist with setup in enemy war territory
This doesn't matter too much since you can do the same with spirits and pods without unteaming.

They both sound broken to me. A lot of this response feels like "well, there are other broken mechanics that let you do this too so this one's not worth worrying about"?


Wed Jun 21, 2017 2:45 pm
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Post Re: fix teamleaving BvB exploits or just remove all BvB limi
Thanks all, it's good to see that there is a widespread dev opinion that the current system needs a good overhaul and that thought is already being put into that. I would disagree with one thing DS mentioned though and that others seemed to concur with:

DarkSteel wrote:
Frankly, this is the same reason we're not taken action against people briefly leaving team to position themselves so they can begin their BvB.

There is currently no way to do it properly...


It seems like you're saying without teamleaving tactics BvB would be impossible. We aren't experts at BvB but have BvB'd and setup a number of times without resorting to these tactics and have also stealthily observed others setting up in our territory to BvB us legitimately without having to use teamleaving tactics either. It definitely takes longer and you have to prepare, organize, and plan for more time than you would if you used teamleaving tactics, and pick your BvB targets more strategically, but it is possible.

So I am still in disagreement with the leniency given to folks doing this, but overall happy to know there is a new system in the works and look forward to it.


Wed Jun 21, 2017 3:45 pm
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Post Re: fix teamleaving BvB exploits or just remove all BvB limi
iwnh01 wrote:
They both sound broken to me. A lot of this response feels like "well, there are other broken mechanics that let you do this too so this one's not worth worrying about"?


You misunderstand me. The OP is asking us to address circumventions that are made possible by leaving team. I am pointing out that several of the issues listed are also possible without leaving team, so even if we did make changes to team-leaving they would still exist. It is important to know what the root cause of a mechanic is before you try to fix it. I have helped clarify which of the items actually have team-leaving as a root cause. I have not actually said that I support any of the mechanics.

dreadlordnaf wrote:
It seems like you're saying without teamleaving tactics BvB would be impossible. We aren't experts at BvB but have BvB'd and setup a number of times without resorting to these tactics and have also stealthily observed others setting up in our territory to BvB us legitimately without having to use teamleaving tactics either. It definitely takes longer and you have to prepare, organize, and plan for more time than you would if you used teamleaving tactics, and pick your BvB targets more strategically, but it is possible.


It would still be possible under certain defense configurations, but it would be impossible or close to impossible under others. If you can't avoid base aggro while getting beyond range, you will need to hopscotch with a Singularity Brake, taking advantage of latency to exit stasis and trigger the jump before the bases start firing on you. In my experience, this is only possible if you have US-style ping, and folks on other continents simply can't do this at all. In numerous BvBs, I have had to take control of DarkSteel's characters in order to get them in position. We are definitely not going to make a change that only allows Americans to BvB. :lol:

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Wed Jun 21, 2017 4:07 pm
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Post Re: fix teamleaving BvB exploits or just remove all BvB limi
DarkSteel wrote:
lrellok wrote:
MasterTrader wrote:
We have a project that will undoubtedly alleviate these issues, and in some cases make these issues completely unproblematic. It's currently on hold, but rest assured we are not happy with the current state of territory conflict in Star Sonata and we definitely intend to remedy these issues. When the time comes, we will share our plans well in advance of any implementation. For now, all I can say is SoonTM.



Aggro galaxies was supposed to be in months ago. Did they take the code out when the removed that or is there a problem with turning a switch on?


In short, aggro'd galaxies would be invulnerable to BvB since the attacking party could never get 10k out. We'll have aggro bases once we implement the new galaxy assault system. Frankly, this is the same reason we're not taken action against people briefly leaving team to position themselves so they can begin their BvB.

There is currently no way to do it properly and while we are aware of the issue and working towards an improved version to prevent sketchy things such as the ones the OP has listed from happening, we are stuck with the current design for now.



This is simply not true. I've done it multiple times against galaxies with many, many defence kits. This doesn't even make sense because you should have to war someone to bvb them, so then surely it's only fair that they get to attack back.

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Thu Jun 22, 2017 8:36 pm
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