Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 17 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
User avatar
Team: Star Revolution X
Rank: Councilor
Main: DreadLordNaf
Level: 4777

Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:33 am
Posts: 655
Post instead of the nerfbat, get creative with Mastodon instead
With the recent nerfbat taken to Mastadon, it now only has 1 more fighter slot than a regular old EFDN with a bunny warren, and is less tankier than a EFDN too.

While I feel taking the in-built fighters down to 6 was too far (8 wouldve been better) if the powers that be have decided that this is the right amount of DPS for masts, then I would then urge them to get a bit creative with the ship instead. The BP and the build materials are much more difficult than an EFDN yet the ship is not much better than an EFDN now in its current state. Additionally the mass solar panels the Mast can equip is a moot point now given that many isnt needed to launch the smaller amount of fighters.

Here are some ways to get creative and make the Mast worth the build cost again:

-allow it to equip 2 fighters gens as its special ability (its a huge ship so makes sense)
-give it a unique in-built fighter generator
-give it an aura that affects fighters only with NON-DPS stats (shields, speed, resist, negative trans, etc)
-give it a super item inbuilt on cooldown that launches a single large fighter, like a fat escort/destroyer/cruiser that does some cool shit (maybe has super hostility and takes heat off the fighters, or just a fun medium dps fighter with a cooldown)

Etc... anyway, there are a lot of ways to make the Mast a more unique fighter boat, worth its build cost, without imbalancing it so I would urge consideration of these or other ideas. Thanks.


Fri Jun 23, 2017 8:29 am
Profile
User avatar
Team: Star Revolution X
Rank: Operator
Main: Maxathron
Level: 1703

Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2006 11:16 am
Posts: 5695
Post Re: instead of the nerfbat, get creative with Mastodon inste
Two fighter gens or the big escort fighter (Mini Lion "fighter"?)


Fri Jun 23, 2017 8:31 am
Profile
User avatar
Team: Eminence Front
Rank: Councilor
Main: Chrono Warrior
Level: 5048

Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2013 1:36 pm
Posts: 326
Post Re: instead of the nerfbat, get creative with Mastodon inste
./signed, a creative nerf would be a breath of fresh air, please make it happen!

- Chrono

_________________
anilv wrote:
#feelthethrm


Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:31 am
Profile
Team: Star Revolution X
Rank: Officer
Main: Thick Black Long Coffee
Level: 4181

Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2010 2:39 pm
Posts: 92
Post Re: instead of the nerfbat, get creative with Mastodon inste
Just looked at the stats between EFDN and Mastodon. Mastodon is still 10x better than an EFDN, even in the tanking aspect.

Not sure how accurate the stats are, but it has 2x the hull space, is faster, has much more in-built stats, the best fighter launcher in t20 range, and has a really strong super item.

I think that if players want different themes on a cap ship it should go on a new cap ship as a choice and not to make an strong ship even stronger.



As for the amounts of fighters it used to have, it was broken and wayyyyyy outside the balance curve. I mean, the fighter gen was better than the best end end game fighter launcher by a long shot. I am sure the ship after the nerf is still not balanced.


As for auras, terrible idea, slaves should not be able to use or have auras. If it does have an aura, it should be nerfed so it's not this useful (ie 0-1 aug slot instead of 2). Most ships that have in-built auras are not useful as combat slaves.


Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:45 pm
Profile
User avatar
Team: Star Revolution X
Rank: Councilor
Main: DreadLordNaf
Level: 4777

Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:33 am
Posts: 655
Post Re: instead of the nerfbat, get creative with Mastodon inste
reyjalrm wrote:
Just looked at the stats between EFDN and Mastodon. Mastodon is still 10x better than an EFDN, even in the tanking aspect.

Not sure how accurate the stats are, but it has 2x the hull space, is faster, has much more in-built stats, the best fighter launcher in t20 range, and has a really strong super item.

I think that if players want different themes on a cap ship it should go on a new cap ship as a choice and not to make an strong ship even stronger.



As for the amounts of fighters it used to have, it was broken and wayyyyyy outside the balance curve. I mean, the fighter gen was better than the best end end game fighter launcher by a long shot. I am sure the ship after the nerf is still not balanced.


As for auras, terrible idea, slaves should not be able to use or have auras. If it does have an aura, it should be nerfed so it's not this useful (ie 0-1 aug slot instead of 2). Most ships that have in-built auras are not useful as combat slaves.


Not sure what stats you are looking at bro..

EFDN resistances: 50% 50% 50% 80% 50% 50% 20%

Mast resistances: 57% 51% 45% 77% 25% 45% 24%

Mast is better in laser, slightly in mining, and a mere 1% better in energy, but is weaker to surg, physica, and especially heat which is a key damage type in PPS.

EFDN hull bonus: 600% shields and energy +30% critical resist

Mast hull bonus: 650% shields and energy +20% critical resist

Mast is slightly better yes but with less crit resist also. But when you end up having like close to 1000% total shield bonuses with gear and augs, the +50% doesnt equate much of an advantage. I didnt list the other in-built because they are useless in this example. The Mast is a fighter boat. If you want to compare direct damage-type in-built stats, then you have to compare the Mast to a PBF and its in-built stats, and in that comparison it loses across the board in almost every way.

EFDN fighter bays with bunny warren: 5
Mast fighter bays: 6

Speed also goes to mast, but meh... That is mainly a convenience issue remedied by travel fields.

So overall as a fighter boat the Mast is slightly better. 20% better in DPS for fighter bays, tankiness though I would say even less, maybe 5 to 10% better than EFDN if multiplied out how much damage it could take with its shields divided by resistances. Though with heat damage its probably equal or worse than EFDN.

But is it 10x, or 1000% better. Not even close dude. And its way more difficult to make.


Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:03 pm
Profile
User avatar
Team: Star Revolution X
Rank: Operator
Main: Maxathron
Level: 1703

Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2006 11:16 am
Posts: 5695
Post Re: instead of the nerfbat, get creative with Mastodon inste
Mastodon's meant as a player ship not a bot ship. Just players are going "Hey, I have RC20..."

Shaft is looking at the current *new* Mastodon stats and comparing it to the old Dreadnought stats.

He is seeing 750 hull and 40 speed for Dreadnought. Mastodon's current stats have 1500 hull and 45 speed.

The actual Dreadnought hull is 1380 and its speed is 60.


Tue Jun 27, 2017 2:00 am
Profile
Team: Star Revolution X
Rank: Officer
Main: ShawnMcCall
Level: 2433

Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:42 am
Posts: 1932
Post Re: instead of the nerfbat, get creative with Mastodon inste
dreadlordnaf wrote:
EFDN fighter bays with bunny warren: 5
Mast fighter bays: 6


Main problem I see is that you think this isn't enough. You're completely ignoring that Bunny Warren, isn't even the baseline bay. The baseline bay is 4 slots. That means that Masto has a hard 50% fighter DPS increase over a baseline bay and 20% over the much harder to obtain Warren.

The Masto is honestly still OP as fuck with fighters, because there is *no way to reach its fighter DPS with any other ship at or below it's tech level in the game period.*

The nerf hit what it needed to, and now people are understandably upset that their relatively cheap investment (Mastos are cheap at the endgame, no one can argue this), is no longer pushing out old prawn numbers. Which I get, it sucks, but a bad decision making you OP doesn't justify making you OP in another area to compensate...

Final nail in the coffin? Masto is still completely worth the build cost for 1. The extra 2 fighter slots over baseline, and 2. the absurd panel slots. It is the best fighter platform in the game at t20, period, full stop. Because as much as you say it isn't worth it, a Masto FC slave is still gonna eat an EFDN FC slave.


Tue Jun 27, 2017 3:24 am
Profile
User avatar
Team: Eminence Front
Rank: Councilor
Main: Blizzara
Level: 6345

Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2007 4:25 pm
Posts: 1955
Location: Finland
Post Re: instead of the nerfbat, get creative with Mastodon inste
I believe Mastodon is still absolutely best ship for fighter boats. As main ship it also seems very legit to me. Original stats were similar to 4 aug prawn and HM power level if not even more overpowered.


Tue Jun 27, 2017 3:31 am
Profile
User avatar
Team: Star Revolution X
Rank: Councilor
Main: DreadLordNaf
Level: 4777

Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:33 am
Posts: 655
Post Re: instead of the nerfbat, get creative with Mastodon inste
ShawnMcCall wrote:
dreadlordnaf wrote:
EFDN fighter bays with bunny warren: 5
Mast fighter bays: 6


Main problem I see is that you think this isn't enough..... It is the best fighter platform in the game at t20, period, full stop.


I love you Shawn, you know i do (not in a man2man way of course) but main issue is I am not sure you got what I was really talking about. I never said it wasnt the best. Why do people keep arguing against strawmans i never make? I was mainly criticizing the Mast for its rarity/build per power and the claim that it was 10x better.

In terms of DPS the first 3 suggestions I made dont actually affect upper bound dps at all, which I am surprised how many people dont understand what I mean when I say this, so I will use D&D terms to explain:

TLDR D&D version:

-EFDN does 1D10 damage
-Mast does 1D12 damage
-My main 3 ideas basically suggest turning Mast damage into 1D10+2 instead by addressing lower bound dps issues. The 4th idea i just pulled out of my ass, and not sure what that would do, depends on implementation.


Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:14 am
Profile
User avatar
Team: Eminence Front
Rank: Councilor
Main: Blizzara
Level: 6345

Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2007 4:25 pm
Posts: 1955
Location: Finland
Post Re: instead of the nerfbat, get creative with Mastodon inste
dreadlordnaf wrote:
-My main 3 ideas basically suggest turning Mast damage into 1D10+2 instead by addressing lower bound dps issues.

So change the mastodon fighter bay to 5 slots and add some kind of superweapon form of dps?

For example, superweapon could be
-superitem that spawns unique fighter or few (going over regular fighter cap)
-splashing damage superitem


Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:35 am
Profile
User avatar
Team: Star Revolution X
Rank: Operator
Main: Maxathron
Level: 1703

Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2006 11:16 am
Posts: 5695
Post Re: instead of the nerfbat, get creative with Mastodon inste
Or buff the tusks. The ship already has a superweapon on it. Just people don't use it at all for the gunboat role.


Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:07 pm
Profile
User avatar
Team: Star Revolution X
Rank: Councilor
Main: DreadLordNaf
Level: 4777

Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:33 am
Posts: 655
Post Re: instead of the nerfbat, get creative with Mastodon inste
Antilzah wrote:
dreadlordnaf wrote:
-My main 3 ideas basically suggest turning Mast damage into 1D10+2 instead by addressing lower bound dps issues.

So change the mastodon fighter bay to 5 slots and add some kind of superweapon form of dps?

For example, superweapon could be
-superitem that spawns unique fighter or few (going over regular fighter cap)
-splashing damage superitem


Not exactly, but Im just gonna go ahead and give myself a failwhale sticker for dating myself and confusing peeps more with the D&D reference..

But in general the essence of what you say is on track. Basically seems like every time something needs buffing or nerfing the only thing looked at for balance is one single factor: the raw maximum dps in Beta Antares test targets. Disappointing really since there are so many other ways to balance out or round out a ship such as giving more varied damage types (increasing lower bound dps), tweaking non-dps stats, or including some unique super items like you mention to address specific weak areas which have nearly unlimited variability in how they can be implemented, etc. This was the point I was attempting to make.


Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:58 pm
Profile
Content Dev
User avatar
Team: Traders
Rank: Councilor
Main: DarkSteel
Level: 3951

Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2006 10:35 am
Posts: 2063
Location: Netherlands
Post Re: instead of the nerfbat, get creative with Mastodon inste
While I agree that we can be a bit more creative with certain nerfs we implement, we're happy with how the Mastodon is performing after the nerf to its Fighter Bay and as such we'll leave it be (for now).

_________________
~DarkSteel / Auxilium
Image
Image


Tue Jun 27, 2017 5:15 pm
Profile
Team: Eminence Front
Rank: Officer
Main: Helius
Level: 2539

Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2015 6:58 am
Posts: 58
Post Re: instead of the nerfbat, get creative with Mastodon inste
From what i saw here, DreadLordNaf understands what issues Mastodon has atm.

This ship can not be compared to EFDN, but if i want to compare...EFDN is OP for its build cost. Mastodon is not. If i decide to build Mastodons, i expect them to be worthy build.

My suggestions are:

- Give Mastodon Fighter bay max 7 slots, launch speed 1 sec (inbuilt stats into fighter bay: -10% resistance to launched fighters).
- Remove Mastodon Tusks (suck big time) and create new super item (support type).

With these suggestions i think most Fleet Commanders will be happy.


Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:40 am
Profile
User avatar
Team: Eminence Front
Rank: Councilor
Main: Blizzara
Level: 6345

Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2007 4:25 pm
Posts: 1955
Location: Finland
Post Re: instead of the nerfbat, get creative with Mastodon inste
chronos wrote:
This ship can not be compared to EFDN, but if i want to compare...EFDN is OP for its build cost. Mastodon is not. If i decide to build Mastodons, i expect them to be worthy build.

I don't understand how +20% fighter dps would not be strong upgrade over dread.


Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:57 am
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 17 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group.