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Post Re: The PBF change was probably one of the most pointless an
anilv wrote:
Septagon wrote:
From everything I've been reading about this, I have to wonder who would even build PBFs or use them any more. It sounds like they're incredibly expensive, now worse in every way to other far cheaper ships, and incredibly squishy to boot. It's a shame too, even though I always have and will like the more blocky solid looking capital ships (gib Mastodon pls) having PBFs as slaves would have been fun.


You should probably check the wiki sometime instead of just speculating. The PBF is not particularly expensive compared to other T20 ships. Any UZ ship or + ship would be more expensive.


About 70% of the material on the wiki is so out of date some of it hasn't been updated since C1, I rarely look at it these days. I did for the PBF though, from what I can see it takes both a Pax Astro and an EF Dreadnought to build, on top of some other things. Unless I'm missing something, it's more expensive than a Dreadnought yet worse than one, going by its bonuses and resists.


Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:13 am
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Post Re: The PBF change was probably one of the most pointless an
Septagon wrote:
it's more expensive than a Dreadnought yet worse than one, going by its bonuses and resists.


their reasoning is BUT HURRRRRRRRRRR THIRD AUG !!!!!!!!!!! MUST MEAN IT MORE OP!!!!!!!!!

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Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:26 am
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Post Re: The PBF change was probably one of the most pointless an
cej1120con wrote:
Septagon wrote:
it's more expensive than a Dreadnought yet worse than one, going by its bonuses and resists.


their reasoning is BUT HURRRRRRRRRRR THIRD AUG !!!!!!!!!!! MUST MEAN IT MORE OP!!!!!!!!!

Could it really make them OP though through some sort of super obscure aug setup? Like, it seems that the idea they're going for is "We want PBFs to be a fast combat bot!" but I haven't really seen a FC yet use combat bots over fighters (this isn't me saying you should nerf fighters, but that you should buff combat bots). So for FCs even with a third aug slot it doesn't seem really useful, and for a T20 capital ship its bonuses to energy and shields are pitiful, I think an EF Cruiser has the same resists and bonuses to energy and shields


Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:41 am
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Post Re: The PBF change was probably one of the most pointless an
They are basically hoping you get giddy in all these fighter setups so when they nerf fighters back down, after everyone's done all their money and Aug resets on them, you will of forgotten about the mfbots, pbfs etc so will all balance into one crappy line.

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Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:54 am
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Post Re: The PBF change was probably one of the most pointless an
If gunners made it op why fuck it over for fcs too? 1.5K Subhatta wild slaves had better survivability than a pbf before this nerf. I don't even want to think about what it's like now lol

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Wed Jul 12, 2017 1:59 pm
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Post Re: The PBF change was probably one of the most pointless an
sabre198 wrote:
Can anybody explain how a shield boost would mean a gunner does more dps?


It doesn't, but we judged in this case that reducing the ship's survivability would be a sufficient measure to compensate for the high DPS.

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Wed Jul 12, 2017 3:27 pm
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Post Re: The PBF change was probably one of the most pointless an
If you all want the third aug gone instead of the shield and energy nerf, I would be happy to bring that proposal to the dev team.

EDIT: Just had a little chat with the other devs and we are fine with putting the Shield augmod up to 300% (instead of 200%) and Energy augmod up to 600%. It is still a nerf compared to the original stats but it's the highest we are willing to go, given the power of that third augmenter.

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Wed Jul 12, 2017 3:28 pm
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Post Re: The PBF change was probably one of the most pointless an
Isn't the third augmenter slot there to weigh up for the low resistances and extremely low hull space?


Wed Jul 12, 2017 3:39 pm
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Post Re: The PBF change was probably one of the most pointless an
Arcturus5 wrote:
Isn't the third augmenter slot there to weigh up for the low resistances and extremely low hull space?


That was likely the original developer's intent, but unfortunately it far outweighs those drawbacks, at least in the current game.

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Wed Jul 12, 2017 3:48 pm
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Post Re: The PBF change was probably one of the most pointless an
Seems reasonable.

Can the developers come up with some other suggestions and ideas on how to keep the ship viable as a DPS oriented bot, without being too powerful when used as a main ship for T22 gunners?


Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:01 pm
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Post Re: The PBF change was probably one of the most pointless an
cej1120con wrote:
anilv wrote:
cej1120con wrote:
well, could the dev team elaborate more on the reason? because your desire to nerf someone's main ship also nerfed someone else's slaves that weren't exactly broken or OP


Sure, the PBF does substantially more DPS as Gunner than any T21+ capship.

So because a Gunner can break it means you have to ruin it for everyone else?

anilv wrote:
It is not particularly expensive, even for a T20 ship, and certainly not compared to the T21+ ships it is doing more DPS than.

The blueprint is a pain in the ass to get, and is 1-use. That is what makes it more expensive.

anilv wrote:
It really sounds like the main reason you consider the PBF inferior to the Mastodon is that fighter spam from bots is overpowered.

I know you're not an idiot so I don't know why you're pretending to be one here.

Mastodons with fighter spam are like 1-ply toilet paper, and the nerfed PBFs are like having to use your bare hand to wipe with. I'd much rather use the 1-ply toilet paper, but 1-ply is mediocre at best.


Mastodon's with fighter spam are 1 ply toilet paper? :lol:

Fighters may be squishy, but the Mastodon itself is nowhere near squishy. If the Mastodon is squishy, please explain what a Speed Demon/Sniper/Seer is?

3 augs on the PBF is flatout busted, it's literally a Heavy Fighter at that point. And when you add in the Bank bonuses it had it's both a Heavy Fighter/Freighter and a Dreadnought at the same time. It's flat out busted, and if FC combat bots at the end game don't feel good in comparison to Wild Bots... maybe it's because Wild Bots were busted. Or maybe bots need to be looked at.

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Wed Jul 12, 2017 5:59 pm
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Post Re: The PBF change was probably one of the most pointless an
MasterTrader wrote:
Mastodon's with fighter spam are 1 ply toilet paper? :lol:

Fighters may be squishy, but the Mastodon itself is nowhere near squishy. If the Mastodon is squishy, please explain what a Speed Demon/Sniper/Seer is?


The Mastodon itself may not be squishy, but if the fighters die, the slave banks out from launching them, and then I'm a sitting duck. An armored duck, but a sitting one nonetheless.

MasterTrader wrote:
3 augs on the PBF is flatout busted, it's literally a Heavy Fighter at that point. And when you add in the Bank bonuses it had it's both a Heavy Fighter/Freighter and a Dreadnought at the same time.


I don't think you understand.
PBF's resistances:
Image

EFDN's resistances:
Image

That difference in resistances is a lot bigger of a deal in real settings than you seem to think it is.


MasterTrader wrote:
It's flat out busted, and if FC combat bots at the end game don't feel good in comparison to Wild Bots... maybe it's because Wild Bots were busted.

FC combat bots at the end game don't feel good in comparison to Wild Bots. Literally any other t20 bot other than the original PBF and the Mastodon are complete shit for an FC and I would not use their blueprints to wipe my own ass.

PBFs were the only thing keeping combat bots useful for FCs after the MF bot nerf. Now combat bots are all pointless and shit. So I guess that leads to this:

MasterTrader wrote:
Or maybe bots need to be looked at.

Yes.
as topbuzz said:

sabre198 wrote:
was jeff shocked that every other slave was a piece of shit


Combat bots are trashed right now and I can't make them useful on any class other than FC.

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Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:36 pm
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Post Re: The PBF change was probably one of the most pointless an
Just to put in perspective, I get ~12k dps with RPADs on a 2 CaL setup for an Antu. Yes I know I can use T22 augs, but that's not the point.

The PBF with identical gear and 3 CaL gets 20.5k dps.

Even with a silly pvp setup like Anger/Zarkara, I still only get 16k dps in the Antu.

With the previous 600% to shield/energy, this 3 CaL setup gives me (Pos Hippios Shield) 273k bank and 46% resist (69% physical, 31% mining). The Antu in comparison for the 2 CaL setup is 251k bank and 67% resist (34% mining). However, this setup only outputs 60% dps.

The Anger/Zarkara setup has 234k bank and 70% resist (41% mining). It only sustains for 40 seconds (Solarian Vigor) to the 110 seconds of the PBF's 3 CaL.

The cost of a PBF to build is pretty much the Pax Astro and the EFDN, both of which are valued to me together at 10b credits. I'd be willing to pay up to 30b for the ship. The three CaLs combined is 45b. So, 75b total for the ship and augs.

The cost of the Antu is a minimum of 30b in straight credits, plus significant amounts of farming Subspace which is equal to at least another 30b. If you don't have the AXR, the costs are much higher..both in resources/farming costs, and the cost to have an actual squad back you up for Wep22 Mini. You can solo Mother as T20 setup; you can't solo Wep22 Mini with same setup. Buying an Antu roughly equates to 100b.

The Anger aug comes from RNF/BNF, which requires a significant squad to tackle. You cannot kill either of them with T20 setups alone, so expect an 8 man T21 squad. Its price is 150b+. The Zarkara is a Zarkara drop, which again can't be done by T20 setups and you will need a T21 squad minimum. This aug is apparently a highly prized SD aug, so I'm expecting another 150b+ to get it.

All in all, the Antu is 400b. All in all, the PBF is 75b. You tell me if that's fair to cost 5 times more to be only 60% the dps value. The Stratos, Banu, and Wrathful all can probably match that dps value with the same gear, but they're considerably more expensive than the PBF and at least the value of the Antu ship by itself.


Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:43 pm
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Post Re: The PBF change was probably one of the most pointless an
Max235 wrote:
Just to put in perspective, I get ~12k dps with RPADs on a 2 CaL setup for an Antu. Yes I know I can use T22 augs, but that's not the point.

The PBF with identical gear and 3 CaL gets 20.5k dps.

Even with a silly pvp setup like Anger/Zarkara, I still only get 16k dps in the Antu.

With the previous 600% to shield/energy, this 3 CaL setup gives me (Pos Hippios Shield) 273k bank and 46% resist (69% physical, 31% mining). The Antu in comparison for the 2 CaL setup is 251k bank and 67% resist (34% mining). However, this setup only outputs 60% dps.

The Anger/Zarkara setup has 234k bank and 70% resist (41% mining). It only sustains for 40 seconds (Solarian Vigor) to the 110 seconds of the PBF's 3 CaL.

The cost of a PBF to build is pretty much the Pax Astro and the EFDN, both of which are valued to me together at 10b credits. I'd be willing to pay up to 30b for the ship. The three CaLs combined is 45b. So, 75b total for the ship and augs.

The cost of the Antu is a minimum of 30b in straight credits, plus significant amounts of farming Subspace which is equal to at least another 30b. If you don't have the AXR, the costs are much higher..both in resources/farming costs, and the cost to have an actual squad back you up for Wep22 Mini. You can solo Mother as T20 setup; you can't solo Wep22 Mini with same setup. Buying an Antu roughly equates to 100b.

The Anger aug comes from RNF/BNF, which requires a significant squad to tackle. You cannot kill either of them with T20 setups alone, so expect an 8 man T21 squad. Its price is 150b+. The Zarkara is a Zarkara drop, which again can't be done by T20 setups and you will need a T21 squad minimum. This aug is apparently a highly prized SD aug, so I'm expecting another 150b+ to get it.

All in all, the Antu is 400b. All in all, the PBF is 75b. You tell me if that's fair to cost 5 times more to be only 60% the dps value. The Stratos, Banu, and Wrathful all can probably match that dps value with the same gear, but they're considerably more expensive than the PBF and at least the value of the Antu ship by itself.


PBF's resistances:
Image

Antuayu's resistances:
Image

I've played as a DPS FC, and I'd rather use (and I do use) an Antuayu instead of a PBF for a DPS ship. Not to mention t21+ augs!


It has 3 augmenter slots but I can only use T20 augmenters! It has piss poor resists! What don't you understand?!

If the PBF was tech 22, I could justify the nerf. Cerb augmenter on that? OP AF. But it's t20. I can't put t21 augs on it.

A 3 aug T20 ship would lose to a 2 aug T22 ship, or you're doing something wrong.

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Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:50 pm
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Post Re: The PBF change was probably one of the most pointless an
I also want to point out that the PBF as a combat bot is an after the fact design. It was never designed to be a combat bot, and thinking all balance changes will be based on it being a combat bot is a fool's errand. It is an attack frigate for offensively minded capship users. As far as I'm aware, the only ships that were specifically designed as a combat bot were the Scrupling, the Crawl Wyrm, and the Equaminizer.

Also, are you fucking daft? How did you expect me to get only multifire 2 only on a ship as a FC with no augs and no gear that provided it? The PBF was conceived as a GUNNER ship from the beginning. Not a FC main ship, not a FC slave. A Gunner ship.

You are whining about a Gunner ship as a Non-Gunner. Sit down, shut up, or go fucking home.


Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:00 pm
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