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Restrict Player Devs?
Yes, no more than 3 per team. 3%  3%  [ 2 ]
Yes, no more than 2 per team. 3%  3%  [ 2 ]
Yes, no more than 1 per team. 51%  51%  [ 30 ]
No, but we do need a solution. 12%  12%  [ 7 ]
No, let player devs do what they want. 31%  31%  [ 18 ]
Total votes : 59

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Post Re: Create Restrictions on # of Player Devs on 1 Team: Bias
if 5k new players dropped who would give a shit about playerdevs as its unlikely you will ever interact with them. At the moment there is a 82.6% chance you will interact with them every time you press space bar.

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Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:57 am
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Post Re: Create Restrictions on # of Player Devs on 1 Team: Bias
I'll notify Jeff about this discussion and see if he's interested to weigh in. By the way, I appreciate the civil tone that this has taken so far and hope to be able to continue that.

I also agree completely that the development process could use more transparency. If I didn't believe that, I wouldn't be posting the sort of information that I have already done in this thread. Reporting to the community is something that the SS dev team has struggled with since far before I became a developer -- older players will remember the days when patchnotes were essentially a joke and most major changes were not publicly documented at all. This is to say that things have gotten better over time, although we still have a long way to go. The reason the team has struggled with community relations is that it's a very unforgiving job for a volunteer, and we have no funds to pay someone to do it either. This means we are going to have to get creative with how we loop the community into our work.

lrellok wrote:
anilv wrote:
So, what can you as a player do if you are unhappy with the game's direction? Put on your professional attitude and apply to join the team with some concrete ideas. Be prepared to justify your opinions, seek compromise, and expect to learn a great deal. Star Sonata has been built by volunteers for no other reason than a love for the game.


The problem with this theory is that i can think of at least two people who have TRIED to do that, and where flatly denied, despite being fully qualified technically. Solutions that only work when convenient are not meaningful solutions.


It would be unprofessional for me to explain publicly why your application to the dev team was denied. All I can say was it was seriously considered by the whole team and the decision was made on the basis of a several concrete factors. It should go without saying that an open invitation to apply to the dev team is not the same thing as an open invitation to join the dev team. If any of you are interested in applying, I would stress that you should be specific and concrete about which game aspects you wish to focus on, and you should display professionalism in all your public conduct.

Masterful wrote:
Can you tell DarkSteel to have a professional attitude and not shitpost on an alt on threads that concern player devs?


I have already done so and will follow up again with greater urgency if the issue continues.

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Tue Jul 18, 2017 8:02 am
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Post Re: Create Restrictions on # of Player Devs on 1 Team: Bias
cej1120con wrote:
I just want to state I'm not targeting anyone. I respect the devs and their work, but I also recognize that as any human, they are naturally going to have a bias.

They may have good intentions, but the decisions made can and most likely will have subconscious bias affecting them. I'm a scientist myself, and as such I recognize that my own biases in my work are inescapable.

I don't think it is healthy if too many devs have the same bias, such as being on the same team.

I might shitpost about the apparent results of these biases, but don't feel like I'm deliberately trying to target a particular group.

I would actually have a similar complaint if most of the dev team were FCs, or base-builders, or shm+sniper combos, or gunners. There is strength in diversity, diversity yields perspective.

Does Jeff have perspective?


Same. I think most of the devs are decent people, like, I barely know you aside from seeing and occasionally talking with you on the forums over the years enk but you seem like a nice guy. The main reason why I got so pissed earlier was DarkSteel replying to the thread anonymously on his alt and trying to shut it down basically, that really was not cool.

I realize what I said about devs being removed from teams is unworkable, but my second suggestion, about all devs being held to higher standards is workable I think. The main obstacle is having someone more powerful than you guys watching you. Enk said he mainly reports to Jeff, but Jeff may as well not exist it feels like. He almost never comments on the game or talks to people, and as Jv2 showed with his quotes earlier he barely understands what's going on in the game most of the time it seems. Chains of command are well and good, but the person you guys report to seems dubiously reliable at best.

Also, again, thanks enk for replying in the thread in a decent, respectable manner. You could have gone all 'lul who cares' or anonymously shitposted but you didn't. I don't exactly trust you (or any of the devs, just because of the issues being brought up in the thread) but having someone at least try to engage and discuss this is nice.


Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:36 am
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Post Re: Create Restrictions on # of Player Devs on 1 Team: Bias
I'd like to hear from folks if they're interested in joining the SS Press Corps, which we have created in part due to this thread. More information here:

http://www.starsonata.com/blog/weekly-d ... 19th-july/

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Thu Jul 20, 2017 10:13 am
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Post Re: Create Restrictions on # of Player Devs on 1 Team: Bias
anilv wrote:

It would be unprofessional for me to explain publicly why your application to the dev team was denied. All I can say was it was seriously considered by the whole team and the decision was made on the basis of a several concrete factors.


Which might be relevant if either of the people I am talking about was me. They are not.

anilv wrote:
If any of you are interested in applying, I would stress that you should be specific and concrete about which game aspects you wish to focus on, and you should display professionalism in all your public conduct.



Except in my communications with varios people, one of the criteria for "professionalism" is "not upsetting the wild space status quo". Which seems to be exactly the problem people are complaining about, that the status quo in wild space is of any relevant concern to the dev team.

Simple example, my idea to have all "low tier" 20+ ships available from missions was tanked on the grounds that it might endanger wild space teams. To which I now reply;"So what?". Why is that a relevant concern?

In any other game I have played, it would not be, the dev team would assume existing teams would build more defences, recruit more members, fight harder, or be replaced by teams willing to do that. But here, the dev team is the top tier teams, and unwilling to do the above, they keibosh the suggestions.

Enk, people are not questioning the professionalism of the dev team, they are questioning the definition of professionalism itself.

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Thu Jul 20, 2017 6:14 pm
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Post Re: Create Restrictions on # of Player Devs on 1 Team: Bias
I'm not aware of any objection to creating mission-based acquisition of low tier T20 ships. We just haven't done it yet because it's not considered high priority.

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Thu Jul 20, 2017 6:27 pm
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Post Re: Create Restrictions on # of Player Devs on 1 Team: Bias
It hasn't been rejected, I haven't done it yet. I will do it.

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Fri Jul 21, 2017 3:01 pm
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Post Re: Create Restrictions on # of Player Devs on 1 Team: Bias
I have been on SRX for 6+ years now and am still waiting for my "being on a dev team" benefits to actually benefit me in any way....

That said I actually have mixed feelings on this. I think most of the really horrendous conflict of interest stuff that happened over the years mainly stems from some rogue devs over the years, and not so much them being on certain teams.

But I do think there are some critical game changes that need to happen but havent, in order to really advance SS to the next level and bring in more players. And those changes are not occurring because they benefit certain established players too much. By coincidence some of those established players may or may not be devs, but those arent related in my mind. Those same established player/devs could be on different teams and it wouldnt matter. So I dont think dev team limitation is the real issue.


Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:57 pm
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Post Re: Create Restrictions on # of Player Devs on 1 Team: Bias
dreadlordnaf wrote:
I have been on SRX for 6+ years now and am still waiting for my "being on a dev team" benefits to actually benefit me in any way....

That said I actually have mixed feelings on this. I think most of the really horrendous conflict of interest stuff that happened over the years mainly stems from some rogue devs over the years, and not so much them being on certain teams.

But I do think there are some critical game changes that need to happen but havent, in order to really advance SS to the next level and bring in more players. And those changes are not occurring because they benefit certain established players too much. By coincidence some of those established players may or may not be devs, but those arent related in my mind. Those same established player/devs could be on different teams and it wouldnt matter. So I dont think dev team limitation is the real issue.


I guess we are mostly in agreement, then. Which changes do you personally believe would be greatly beneficial to the game but prevented from taking place by some minority of influential players?

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Fri Jul 21, 2017 11:03 pm
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Post Re: Create Restrictions on # of Player Devs on 1 Team: Bias
anilv wrote:
dreadlordnaf wrote:
I have been on SRX for 6+ years now and am still waiting for my "being on a dev team" benefits to actually benefit me in any way....

That said I actually have mixed feelings on this. I think most of the really horrendous conflict of interest stuff that happened over the years mainly stems from some rogue devs over the years, and not so much them being on certain teams.

But I do think there are some critical game changes that need to happen but havent, in order to really advance SS to the next level and bring in more players. And those changes are not occurring because they benefit certain established players too much. By coincidence some of those established players may or may not be devs, but those arent related in my mind. Those same established player/devs could be on different teams and it wouldnt matter. So I dont think dev team limitation is the real issue.


I guess we are mostly in agreement, then. Which changes do you personally believe would be greatly beneficial to the game but prevented from taking place by some minority of influential players?


Biggest thing is the removing of MC'ing. I dont mean preventing people from having more than one account, or blocking multiple accounts from the same IP. I mean slowly changing the game, to where playing 1 character is so dynamic, engaging and effective, that it is no longer worth it to MC. In WoW or any other MMO someone trying to play 2 or 3 chars at once will fail miserably and get their ass handed to them by someone just focusing on one character and playing it to the max with their abilities, combos, special moves etc This is been known as the best solution to MCing for years now yet it seems there is no interest in pursuing this, small ideas to gradually bring us there are rejected, and we occasionally even slide backward, making the game more MC friendly. Financially I feel like the game is now captured by MC'ers...

MCing at its core is pay to win and I think the vast majority of gamers in the world that we would like to bring SS to reject this concept. I could choose to specialize my main FC char to make it better for defense or offense, but why bother? When I can just pay 8 more bucks a month, keep it all offense focused and then have a real t22 engi just follow me around which is super easy to manage and can take care of all my healing needs for me, with no actual need for the inconvenience of coordinating with another person. It would be like if I was choosing between good armor or better sword on another MMO, but could just pay extra money to gain double or triple the armor and weapon slots and not have to worry about that decision, with it all purely based on $. I don't think SS is really going to ever go to the next level if we accept the MC mechanic as a normal part of the game.

I have other gripes that fall into this category like some of the BvB mechanics where it seems an arbitrary line has been drawn on what constitute legit tactics vs exploit, and that line looks like the border of a gerrymandered congressional district that is intended mainly to favor a very very small subset of established players. Even factoring in their offline real-life inconveniences so that it is made as easy and convenient as possible for them to BvB, and so they dont have to change their long used tactics. Despite the vast majority of players are not in the boat of being established players who even want to BvB, nor have these real life inconveniences. No one is saying wild space should be safe or risk free. But it seems odd one group of small established players has the rules so bent in a way to favor their unique circumstance, their offline situation, and their preferred play style, over the majority of players whose circumstances, offline situations, and play style are not taken into account.

It is turn off to new players to encounter these type of skewed mechanics so favorable to a small subset of established players. I would love it if my own personal offline situation not related to the game were factored into future game mechanic changes, but I dont expect that, and I think it should hold true for everyone. But I digress....

MC'ing is still my main complaint on this issue though.


Sat Jul 22, 2017 9:10 am
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Post Re: Create Restrictions on # of Player Devs on 1 Team: Bias
I don't recall anyone on the dev team against creating dynamic content,i remember t22 was touted as mc proof due to all these boss scripts that would make the players not be able to sit in one spot etc. its not for the want of trying its just a hard thing as the smoks of this world get round it eventually.

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