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Post Re: Expand EF buildable space to include W2
lrellok wrote:
Blue Dwarf wrote:
Around 2013 time or so, I got a Wattage aug for my Berserker. I do not own bases, and haven't done so really since 2010. My team didn't build the aug for me either (at the time, I might've been on Capitalists, which would've just been me and Jeff) and I did not buy it.

So the question is; how did I get a Wattage Augmenter?


You didn;t. Its that simple. EIther you built it, or someone else built it. One of the two.

I am not interested in stupid riddles here, i am interested in concrete solutions to a problem that is going to cripple new player recruitment to this game.

I gathered the materials and a friend from another team build it for me.
Actually, might not have even been a friend, just an acquaintance.

My point is; you don't have to do everything yourself and others will help you (if you help them, or they're nice). The resources are around to gain money from multiple avenues of income.

Also; part of what made Singles expand pretty quickly when we came to bases is that we encouraged team members to contribute money to a team station fund so that we could train characters with Station Management (which is kinda expensive for an entirely new team, as the cost is level³*1,000,000) and fund anything else we needed for them. We created the team about a month ago and we've claimed five galaxies, have a few colonies (for ruin extracts) and industrial commodities going and recently completed our first T20 ship and have a Warp Beacon out.

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Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:20 pm
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Post Re: Expand EF buildable space to include W2
Rendghast has already explained to me that "Singles is a team of endgame players who know what they're doing and can therefore claim, exploit, and defense a cadre of galaxies to such a degree that a new team cannot."

Which as he can see, Singles is not doing anything that a new team can't do, or do quickly enough. Especially if you pressure said new team with 30 *other* new teams that all want space and are willing to fight over it.

Enkelin summed it up, and so far I haven't seen any evidence to the contrary.

Rendghast doesn't have the time needed to lead a team, but doesn't want to change his tactics because he specifically wants tried and true methods. The downside is that tried and true methods have already been discovered by someone else, so there is always competition. Rendghast doesn't have the manpower, assets, determination, or time to beat back the competition, so he's here complaining on the forum.

Rendghast is trying to finance a PAY TO PLAY team (you notice he's talking about Laconia kits? You don't need more than a couple of Tech 9 ai bought kits to defeat enemies in EF Layer) in EF Layer and through a tactic literally everyone else is doing better at. You certainly don't need to be thinking about Ada kits.

Rendghast is doing all of this by himself because the dirtbags on his team won't help him. He's selflessly giving away stuff to said dirtbags so the team can stay together, in a sense bribing the selfish dirtbags to stay on the team. He takes anyone and everyone partially because DSF is a "training team", and partially because DSF is a ghost town.


So listen here Rendghast, before literally everyone ignores you.

As a team leader, your job is to make the in game lives of your underlings to be as fun and streamlined as possible. If there is something boring, you do it. You need to inspire people to follow your policies. If you need something, encourage people to contribute or outright give it to you. Anyone who cannot or will not do this needs to be removed immediately, lest it create a toxic environment.

As the primary organizer of builds for a small/new team, time and resource management are your two most important issues. You don't have time to sit there and do things step by step. You also don't have the resources to build every single item yourself. You need to streamline the process as much as you can.

As the main defense coordinator, super strong high quality bases are not your concern. Just about every galaxy in Wild Space has more raw resources than an average EF galaxy. Your goal is to hold onto a small cluster of galaxies using *cost effective* methods. If your galaxy gets attacked and killed, so what? Rebuild it. Either there or somewhere else. Use numbers, not quality. Force other teams into using up ada kits to attack you. The amount of resources needed to build one T20 base to Z gear is 10x that of a single T16 base. And each T16 Z geared base is 80% the raw power of that T20 Z base. Large EXE kits can be reset to STM if it comes to an attack. Build, use, and aug (if they actually have slots) to help defend. Gear up player ships to harass and disrupt enemy squads. You just have to survive for 12 hours.

As someone who was at the point of being a new player, do multiple things. Don't sit there and hammer away at a rock for hours on end. You'll get bored. Fast. As fuck. And bored players go find something to relieve their boredom, which in this case is anything *but* the game. Maybe you actually like to drive that truck for 10 hours a day 7 days a week, but just everyone else does NOT like doing one single task for 70 hours a week.

As a team coordinator, your job is to keep people playing. DSF's policy is to let people go when they feel like they learned the ropes. That is the WRONG policy if you want to be a legitimate team. You need to foster unity and brotherhood. Try your hardest to keep good people (the non-dirtbags that ask "what's in it for me?") together on the same team, *your* team.

As a team diplomat, sometimes you do have to fight. It is better to know how to fight and never fight than to not know how to fight and always need to fight. The wild west was not a peaceful place between America and Natives, even if there were peaceful groups involved. If you cannot hold onto your claim, you might as well not bother in the first place.


Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:26 pm
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Post Re: Expand EF buildable space to include W2
Max235 wrote:
Rendghast has already explained to me that "Singles is a team of endgame players who know what they're doing and can therefore claim, exploit, and defense a cadre of galaxies to such a degree that a new team cannot."


That would be quite surprising as i have not talked to you since uni reset....

Max235 wrote:
As a team leader, your job is


Not relevant to any part of this discussion. Ty for paying attention maxa. The topic is " Expand EF buildable space to include W2".

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Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:44 pm
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Post Re: Expand EF buildable space to include W2
W1 is too small: Maybe. But there is no mythical 5000 people in the game *now*. I'm also pretty sure there's a code reason for why W2 can't be opened for building with different building rules. It probably needs a separate Layer...oh wait, Wild Space is a separate layer.

EF is not for large teams. It's a building ground for people to get the hang of building, not finance a whole damn team.

Rendghast can't mine Promethium. Get more bots or don't expect to build vasttttt amounts of stuff.

Rendghast can't make money off Sub-Shield Buffers. Use alternative methods of income or go p2p.

Rendghast doesn't like alternative methods of income because not reliable enough or can't bankroll whole team. Tough shit.

Rendghast packrats everything and complains about money issues. Also, tough shit.

Rendghast's team is made up of shitty little children who need to receive money before doing anything. Get better recruitment standards.

Rendghast is trying to build every single item by himself and do it in an asinine step by step process. Either get used to ridiculously slow builds or don't try to build literally everything yourself. Also get better teammates so they can actually help you.


Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:53 pm
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Post Re: Expand EF buildable space to include W2
YOu really do need to work on reading comprehension maxa.

Max235 wrote:
W1 is too small: Maybe. But there is no mythical 5000 people in the game *now*. I'm also pretty sure there's a code reason for why W2 can't be opened for building with different building rules. It probably needs a separate Layer...oh wait, Wild Space is a separate layer.


Enk already said it could.... viewtopic.php?p=767360#p767360 so...yeah...reading.

Max235 wrote:
EF is not for large teams. It's a building ground for people to get the hang of building, not finance a whole damn team.


80% of players in most MMO's are casual, so unless you want a reputation for being jaw dropping snoots, EF needs to accommodate 5 times the people that WS does.

Max235 wrote:
Rendghast can't mine Promethium. Get more bots or don't expect to build vasttttt amounts of stuff.


I am currently running 60 mining bots on 2 account, but thankyou for your concern.

Max235 wrote:
Rendghast can't make money off Sub-Shield Buffers. Use alternative methods of income or go p2p.


I would imagine i cannot, considering i do not have one single buffer factory equiped anywhere...

Max235 wrote:
Rendghast doesn't like alternative methods of income because not reliable enough or can't bankroll whole team. Tough shit.


So you flatly asceed that the existing income methods are not relighable and you could care less about how new players are going to afford things like Drone Controlers and Fighter Gens... Steam is going to love that.

Max235 wrote:
Rendghast packrats everything and complains about money issues. Also, tough shit.

My funding of the armory has no relation to the inconstancy of the in game funding models. I am actually quite well financed right now....its the new players who joined DSF who are consistently having problems...and have been for several uni's now. WHich you would know if you had been paying the least attention to what your team members wanted...

Max235 wrote:
Rendghast's team is made up of shitty little children who need to receive money before doing anything. Get better recruitment standards.


Actually, no they do not, its just they need weapons and equipment before doing anything, which requires money to build or buy. I presume you are not suggesting i recruit people who will rampantly break game rule 8, forum rule 9 or chat rule 11?

Max235 wrote:
Rendghast is trying to build every single item by himself and do it in an asinine step by step process. Either get used to ridiculously slow builds or don't try to build literally everything yourself. Also get better teammates so they can actually help you.


The only thing i am currently building is a Cherub... really, do you not understand abstract discussion at all maxa?

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Last edited by lrellok on Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:49 pm
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Post Re: Expand EF buildable space to include W2
For an example of how non team leaders should be helping out a team, on singles i provided most/all of the eridium needed for the warp beacon, i also helped out many of the t20 ship builds the team has done over the past few days by providing ai commods as needed. A good team will have players who are willing to sacrifice resources for the good of the team. Its what has allowed Singles to claim galaxies in wild space. No single player of singles would of been able to do what it took everyone pitching in to do.


Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:37 pm
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Post Re: Expand EF buildable space to include W2
lrellok wrote:
YOu really do need to work on reading comprehension maxa.

Max235 wrote:
W1 is too small: Maybe. But there is no mythical 5000 people in the game *now*. I'm also pretty sure there's a code reason for why W2 can't be opened for building with different building rules. It probably needs a separate Layer...oh wait, Wild Space is a separate layer.


Enk already said it could.... viewtopic.php?p=767360#p767360 so...yeah...reading.

I know what Enkelin said. I hammer points until people get it. I also like to summarize everything into neat little posts.

Max235 wrote:
EF is not for large teams. It's a building ground for people to get the hang of building, not finance a whole damn team.


80% of players in most MMO's are casual, so unless you want a reputation for being jaw dropping snoots, EF needs to accommodate 5 times the people that WS does.

No it doesn't. EF is for people unwilling to contest galaxies in Wild Space. You get vastly less rewards for *no* risks, something you seem unable to understand. You do have the chance (or certainty, in your case) to be driven out by competitors. Well tough shit, you get no competitors at all in an owned wild space galaxy.

F2p exists, but it's really one big demo.

Max235 wrote:
Rendghast can't mine Promethium. Get more bots or don't expect to build vasttttt amounts of stuff.


I am currently running 60 mining bots on 2 account, but thankyou for your concern.

Pro tip, if your bots mine something, other bots don't try to steal it until a certain amount of time passes.

Another pro tip, speed is greater than number of mining guns working. The faster your bots go, the less likely some other team's bots will scoop unless it was already there.


Max235 wrote:
Rendghast can't make money off Sub-Shield Buffers. Use alternative methods of income or go p2p.


I would imagine i cannot, considering i do not have one single buffer factory equiped anywhere...

Max235 wrote:
Rendghast doesn't like alternative methods of income because not reliable enough or can't bankroll whole team. Tough shit.


So you flatly asceed that the existing income methods are not relighable and you could care less about how new players are going to afford things like Drone Controlers and Fighter Gens... Steam is going to love that.

As a new player, you should not be thinking "Hmm, I can make 1b an hour, so if I play for 4 hours, I can have 4b. I'm going to do this each login until I have 128b."

Max235 wrote:
Rendghast packrats everything and complains about money issues. Also, tough shit.

My funding of the armory has no relation to the inconstancy of the in game funding models. I am actually quite well financed right now....its the new players who joined DSF who are consistently having problems...and have been for several uni's now. WHich you would know if you had been paying the least attention to what your team members wanted...

I'm actually not talking about your armory, which I think is a stupid idea and a waste of time, but since you maintain it...

I'm referring to that comment you made when someone suggested selling Nu Convotronic IIs and Hydroponics for money when you need money. Eek, those are too valuable to sell for money! I need money, though...


Max235 wrote:
Rendghast's team is made up of shitty little children who need to receive money before doing anything. Get better recruitment standards.


Actually, no they do not, its just they need weapons and equipment before doing anything, which requires money to build or buy. I presume you are not suggesting i recruit people who will rampantly break game rule 8, forum rule 9 or chat rule 11?

So they can't play the game to make money to pay off you while you build stuff? They can't kill rats in DF0 dgs? They can't do missions without having full Enforcer gear when they leave nexus?

Max235 wrote:
Rendghast is trying to build every single item by himself and do it in an asinine step by step process. Either get used to ridiculously slow builds or don't try to build literally everything yourself. Also get better teammates so they can actually help you.


The only thing i am currently building is a Cherub... really, do you not understand abstract discussion at all maxa?

If you asked, I'd build and sell you a Cherub for 1 or 2 bil. They aren't expensive to build at all.


Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:43 pm
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Post Re: Expand EF buildable space to include W2
Max235 wrote:
No it doesn't. EF is for people unwilling to contest galaxies in Wild Space.


Which i have already argued is going to be about 80% of the people who show up...



Max235 wrote:
Pro tip, if your bots mine something, other bots don't try to steal it until a certain amount of time passes.

Another pro tip, speed is greater than number of mining guns working. The faster your bots go, the less likely some other team's bots will scoop unless it was already there.


Actually i have found radar trumps both of those for some reason. The sooner you 'See" the astroid, the faster it moves. But thankyou, i alredy have all my mining bots equiped with Speed, Radar and Agility AUgmenters.

Max235 wrote:
As a new player, you should not be thinking "Hmm, I can make 1b an hour, so if I play for 4 hours, I can have 4b. I'm going to do this each login until I have 128b."


As a new players in a competitive PvP environment, that is EXACTLY what you should be thinking. So unless you want to flatly concede my position about EF layer needing to be larger then the rest of the game...Or several entire new non PvP layers being necessary.

Max235 wrote:
I'm actually not talking about your armory, which I think is a stupid idea and a waste of time, but since you maintain it...

I'm referring to that comment you made when someone suggested selling Nu Convotronic IIs and Hydroponics for money when you need money. Eek, those are too valuable to sell for money! I need money, though...


Yes, i am going to sell for a messily 1/2 billion an item that could make me double that in a single uni...

Max235 wrote:
So they can't play the game to make money to pay off you while you build stuff? They can't kill rats in DF0 dgs? They can't do missions without having full Enforcer gear when they leave nexus?


You can get EF Overloaders, Drone Controllers and Cerberus Fighter Generators off of Space Rats? Thats incredible maxa, when did that change?

Max235 wrote:
If you asked, I'd build and sell you a Cherub for 1 or 2 bil. They aren't expensive to build at all.


And this is where we get back to your packrat comment maxa. Why the hell would i pay you 2 billion credits for an item i can build for 200 million credits from what i have in storage? See how that works, saving things just got me 1.8 billion credits. Isn't that awesome?

urzaserra256 wrote:
For an example of how non team leaders should be helping out a team, on singles i provided most/all of the eridium needed for the warp beacon, i also helped out many of the t20 ship builds the team has done over the past few days by providing ai commods as needed. A good team will have players who are willing to sacrifice resources for the good of the team. Its what has allowed Singles to claim galaxies in wild space. No single player of singles would of been able to do what it took everyone pitching in to do.


Urza, i really should not have to repeat that DSF is a training team by now. I have players who i am having to build WIppit Fighter gens for becouse they have no idea what a fighter even is, much less how to get one. I am well aware of how a team going to WS would theoretically function, however i am also aware of two other things.
1) I have dis-proven every funding model you threw at me, and
2) 80% of players are casual.

Lemme repeat that. 80% of the people who show up here will never in a million years meet maxas standards for a team member. So you have tow choices, 1, accept your steam release is already dead and you are the ones who killed it, or 2) start dealing with the proposals i am making seriosly.

Becouse that is what i am telling you how to do, get that 80% to pay you money. Allowing construction of tech 20 ships without wildspace holdings, expanding non PvP play area, Increasing funding so people who might have one day a week to play can still get things like tech 20 gear. These are going to be requests you are bombarded with post steam. or you will watch ALOT of players walk...AGAIN.

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Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:55 am
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Post Re: Expand EF buildable space to include W2
Casual doesn't have to mean bad. Over the years we have had plenty of folks on Traders who I would describe as casual gamers. They were P2P but only had one or two accounts, would do runs with team every now and then, or get on for a few hours and DG solo if no one else was available. Many of these folks were long-time contributors to team who built up their wealth gradually and eventually were great assets to us.

If 80% of gamers are that kind of casual player, I would welcome them with open arms. But it sounds like you think 80% of gamers are people who think SS is a single player game and have no interest in collaborating with others. I don't really care about those folks and I don't see why the game should cater to them especially well.

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Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:28 am
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Post Re: Expand EF buildable space to include W2
Idk about you. I could build myself my own car. I really could. There are diagrams on the internet and various workshops I could easily obtain. The raw materials are fairly cheap too.

Or I could buy a car.

It'd take me about a year of working to get enough money for a new straight off the factory with all the bells and whistles I want, car.

On the other hand it'd take me a decade of ordering raw materials, making parts, and putting them together in a way that meets my standards, gives me the gadgets I want, and meets government regulations.

If I owned that factory in the first place, I could have that car in days.

Making money in this game to buy one or two items you need is much faster than running around at your level building each and every step so you can save money. You're going to have to weigh do you need this item now, or can you wait a much longer time.


Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:32 am
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Post Re: Expand EF buildable space to include W2
anilv wrote:
But it sounds like you think 80% of gamers are people who think SS is a single player game and have no interest in collaborating with others. I don't really care about those folks and I don't see why the game should cater to them especially well.


Because you want a large stable player base paying you money enk.

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Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:26 pm
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Post Re: Expand EF buildable space to include W2
This is an MMO, not Candy Crush. The game is designed and intended for people who are interested in playing a MULTIPLAYER game. That is a fundamental design principle of this game. We have no reason or interest to cater specifically to players who are looking for a single-player type experience.

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Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:33 pm
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Post Re: Expand EF buildable space to include W2
95%+ of Null-sec space holding alliances are made up smart contributing members. They don't contribute much, just the random bits and bobs required of their alliance. They form up for fleet actions when they can. They aren't that good at playing Eve Online. But without them, all those alliances will fall within a matter of hours. Very very few of them are helpless or have planet sized egos like Pretend Dev Uhmari.

Your idea of a "casual player" is someone who is inherently bad at the game, relatively helpless in completing simple tasks, cannot follow orders well, and are naturally greedy or weak personal character. I'm not sure how you got it into your head that Rakknah Enforcer is the ideal teammate, but he's not. Are you sure you're on DSF in the first place? Did you actually cause Trixx, Chalfonts, and Greyhawke to leave the team?


Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:39 pm
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Post Re: Expand EF buildable space to include W2
anilv wrote:
This is an MMO, not Candy Crush. The game is designed and intended for people who are interested in playing a MULTIPLAYER game. That is a fundamental design principle of this game. We have no reason or interest to cater specifically to players who are looking for a single-player type experience.


Where did i say this was candy crush? Please Clarify? No, my statement was
lrellok wrote:
Lemme repeat that. 80% of the people who show up here will never in a million years meet maxas standards for a team member.


Which, for refreshments sake, was
Max235 wrote:
My recruitment policy on DSF was to recruit people who at least knew the basics. If they were a reasonable personality and eager to learn, I would talk to them beforehand to gauge what they needed to know.

Max235 wrote:
I had a headache of people being recruited as bodies and ending up asking that question when I ask for slots. Even if I (or the team) completely foots the equipment bill, such people refused and would rather sit on their slots doing nothing at all rather than contribute. I should have booted them right there and ruined their reputation as a team player they advertised as.


Yeah, expecting people to sink 2 billion credits into STM so they could hand him the base slots for him to use....And you think new players who barely know how to steer their ships are going to do that? Your funny enk.

Yes, you should be able to advance through the game at the most basic level without assistance. Acquiring non PvP gear and ships should not be overly difficult, we have already seen the results of this with the flood of Multi CLients jamming up the server.

WHy is anyone multi clienting enk? Becouse they cannot solo even basic content, and no, people, even on the advanced teams, do not help in the way you seem to think they do. That is WHY multi clienters exist. But you want to prove me wrong, go for it. AUto Kick multiple logins from the same IP for ONE WEEK and see what the reaction is...but i think we both already know how that will end, don;t we.

You need to seriously rethink the layout of this game...the longer you dodge the issues, the worse fixing them will be.

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Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:56 pm
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Post Re: Expand EF buildable space to include W2
Um… you pay for their first SM 20 alt so you can use their slots in exchange. That is like, team leading 101.

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Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:16 pm
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