There are over 25000 Laconia Sheets on market holy shit.

We seem to be talking past eachother again, so let me be more clear.

One of the many DSF wild space plans called for 18 players to take 6 galaxies, my personal proposal was 2 boarder and 4 interior galaxies along the edge. The 4 boarder gals would have 10 tech 18 demented kits as defenses, and the interior would have 5 of the same. 40 kits for defense alone. For a band new 50 person team, that would pack them in like sardines.

http://wiki2.starsonata.com/index.php/F ... _Blueprint
http://wiki2.starsonata.com/index.php/L ... _Blueprint
http://wiki2.starsonata.com/index.php/D ... _Blueprint

That is a total of 600 titanium sheets, 600 laconia sheets, and 120 dementium.

Lets assume they build the titanium and liconia and buy the dem sheets.

600 million + 7.2 billion + 120 billion = 130 billion with some build costs for the kits included.

Now, we will further assume that like DSF they fund this entire enterprise by Sub-shield Buffers at 500,000 credits each. 260,000 buffers at 25 prom each comes to 6.5 million Promethium, or 50,000 prom a day assuming they get started on the very first day of the uni.

Now, we will again make the assumption that a 2k sustain belt has an average output of 40 prom per minute. That is 57,000 prom per day. SO a team trying to get to wild space would need a full belt worth of prom JUST TO FINANCE THEIR BASES! This is completely ignoring the costs of base weapons (Abstructors now cost 2 billion each), Station SUites (lux cost i think 2 billion each, so thats 10 for an account times 50 accounts, 1 trillion sound right enk?), plus whatever personal costs the players need for ships, weapons, and equipment...and their proddies, of they can fit any in there.

There are 5 prom belts on EF layer with 2k+ yield. Are you honestly going to tell me that steam is going to be such a jaw dropping failure that you do not even anticipate 250 people joining? WHen we just got told that there are 6000 people with SS on their wish list? Or do you actually think everyone is going to pay money to support one of the existing WS teams? Really? People are going to pay money for a game so they can always be second fiddle to someone else?

The limitations on EF layer would be unacceptable even if we where not trying to recruit new players...but we are, so they are completely absurd.

You're massively overthinking what it takes to secure a territory for a small team, Rendghast. The cost of building most if not all of your stuff right from the get go to secure a space for your team isn't that expensive in the long run. Provided you even had that many people on your team, you would not be packing people in like sardines. And no, as a team leader, I would not be trying to build every single step myself in such micromanagement fashion that it drives me nuts.

I would be trying to outsource as much production as I could to the market, because as the leader of a new team, my entire goal would be to keep the game as fun and streamlined as possible for my members. Time is a very valuable resource, and having to take the time out to build things one step at a time in such ridiculous volume as you wanted...

A galaxy around DF200 can be held by 10 Laconia T16 STMs, and 10-20 Laconia T16 EXE kits. Situated in this galaxy is upwards of 30 Andaman Indy Drones too. Ignoring the build up of raw resources, that is a paltry 5b *Total* on market. Getting the credits needed to purchase all the Sheets is farrrr easier than getting the resources needed.

Funny how when we where building and i proposed exactly that you dismissed it as total garbage that would be over run in a week...makes me wonder about your choice to leave team.

But i am willing to be proven wrong. Go make a team and try to defend a territory with that trash maxa, i will come and watch 13 destroy you.

I left DSF because I had to. I would be the only active *American* p2p on an entirely British team. I am also indebted to one of the people that joined up with SRX anyways. My honor and loyalty came above my duties as a councilor. Yes, DSF fell apart. I feared it was going to anyways with how some of our members acted. Could I have done better? Probably.

As for my building plans, I planned my team galaxies out beforehand on the notion of standing up to a mid sized team that knew what it was doing. That is why I was so adamant on ridiculous defenses.

For a new team not intending to get into the core regions of Wild Space (DF300), what you proposed was perfectly fine. I was looking at it from the perspective of needing resources to fuel a team growth, hence the overkill defense plans. I was looking at shoveling in half a billion of each raw resource per day. And that kind of resource income would be met by termites and player teams.

To give you numbers on what kind of income this is, I'm personally pulling in about 30b credits worth of resources per day. With two accounts. Yes I understand that most new players wouldn't have 10 characters right off the bat with Dark Freighter slaves, Ada T20s, etc...The level of raw resources coming in from where I am would effortlessly pay for a small team's construction projects. I am however constantly dealing with Legendary Termites, which require some significant firepower to bat away. The fragility of Kikale Mzungu kits for exe characters have spurred me to consider using Ada kits for exe. I know DarkSteel uses normal T20 kits, and through his massive defenses he still loses bases to termites.

I rest my case. If T20 bases with augs cannot stand up to WS termites, what the hell would t16 laconias even do against them, much less a full on ada BvB? The idea that hugging the edge will not get you attacked was proven massively wrong by chal two unis ago, it was precisely because we where in that gal that 13 targeted us.

Maxa, even fortified 18's have a better resistance profile then any t16 base there is. The idea that t16 anything is going to stop a BvB, even a 5 kit one, is absurd.

Which brings up back to the trillion in costs to get Lux SUites...

Once again you (Rendghast) follow the predictable pattern:

Privately identifies problem A, which might be alleviated by solution B.
Proposes solution B by itself.
Gets mad when objections are raised.
At length, reveals problem A that kicked the whole thing off.

To your credit, you did notice that we were talking past each other this time, which is an improvement from before.

Anyway, we can finally get somewhere now that you have showed your hand. There are a lot of issues with your "problem A" here, i.e. the DSF Wild Space Plan.

1) If you have to buy the bulk of your own Dementium to finance your first WS build, you are setting yourself up for failure. There is no guarantee that you will recoup that cost.

2) Your idea of launching the team from EF into WS, claiming six galaxies at once, is probably not optimal. You could instead claim 2-3 galaxies by cherry picking ones with good potential income and using an outpost if necessary. If you take a whole contiguous group of six, you are likely getting trash in most of them. It might be a tight squeeze for 50 players, but then not all of them need to be committed to the project beyond donating base, drone, and trade bot slots (which they would not have been using anyway). The main goal of such an operation should be to generate enough wealth to fund SM 20 for alts and afford a more ambitious operation in future unis.

3) I don't see why you would restrict yourself to Sub-Shield Buffer income. 130b in a uni is not that much if you are selling augmenters, capturing Infernos/SBB/Basils, and so on. If all 50 of your players kill the Slumberchrome boss in Blanco every lockout for a uni, that is already 750b credits earned.

4) As Churchill said, I'm not sure the cost-benefit of Demented kits is favorable in the first place. You might do a lot better with 25 Lac16 kits per gal over 2-3 galaxies, specced for healing. It would certainly be less expensive.

Oh cool, another thread where Rendghast asks for more shit for free because bad at game.

Also, Demented Sheets don't exist. You're revealing how much you know nothing about this game, Rend. Also also, why would you buy the dem... DGs exist.

I'm going to highlight Shawn's post.

Kikale Mzungu kits are T16. I'm using them for exe kits because they look pretty. I've had to fully aug all my exe kits and put them at Andaman Z gear. I have 10 Ada T20s and 15 Anni Assault drones in the galaxy providing overwatch to those exe kits. I want to use Ada T16s because 1) Pretty, and 2) 6 augs.

I am based out of DF300-area territory. The Legendary Termites come with the turf. However I have so much resources in my two gals it's okay. I make plenty of passive money. All I'm missing is augmenters, which I have to farm Jungle/UZ anyways.

From my very first post

lrellok wrote:

I am not certain if this person is merely ver, very greedy or honestly wants some ulterior objective like PvP on EF layer (Which would obviously kill any hope of new player recruitment) but the impact of this behavior should be clear...in order for any new team to get off of EF layer, Prom is required, usually in large quantities. THis persons behavior is going to kill any hope of large scale player recruitment, one way or another.

I have little to no patience with the idea that "Existing teams" will recruit any substantial number of new players, at least not in the numbers we need them. First, of all, in the number we need them, the existing teams are unlikely to have enough team slots. Second of all, most new players will want to organize their own teams, particularly if you have groups joining together, which is not entirely unheard of.

Simply becouse i had to spend 5 posts beating you over the head to get you to understand what i was telling you, does not mean that some ulterior motive was revealed, it means it took 5 posts for you to get what i was talking about from the beginning. WHich is also consistent with you enk. You really are very mentally obstinate. YOu have the annoying habit of getting fixated that something has to be possible because otherwise a major rework is going to be necessary, and rejecting every shred of evidence that a major rework is necessary because you don't want to do it.



So you flatly accede that Dementuim needs to be a tech 18 Blueprint that is available on earthforce layer? Wonderful, that is a load off my mind, please implement at once.



ROFL, that is so funny, you actually think people are going to donate anything to a project they are not going to benefit from...oh wow that's hilarious. No Enk, i have run teams in a dozen games, no one is going to chip a single credit if they are not getting something out of it. THey will set up nothing, contribute nothing. THis was in fact perfectly observable in DSFs run, when most of our player base could not be asked to even set up bases beyond their shop or contribute a single dem frag to anything.

Also, the reason i chose 5-6 galaxies is that this is what tends to be contiguous in WS edges, not because i think they will get "AWSOME" resources. Harlen to Larsen, Glen to Isot, Doctorow to Faivre, Hassele to Mundorn, all would be good options (and are currently being used as good options) for a small team to barricade themselves in and sit tight. WHich is what we can see most small teams in WS doing...

And what the hell would i need to fund alts for when i have 50 active players building bases? Geeze, your entire framework is a problem here enk.



WHich they are going to need for things like ships, weapons, and Lux SUites...already covered that enk. The reason i picked sub shield buffers is that those are what everyone is already using. No one is trying to kill Blanco a dozen times, they are building buffers (and yes, i have tried that, timing the lockout around a work schedule is hell). Also if you had ever been to my shop, you would know i am selling Basil SHeaths/Hotgoods/ like they grow on trees...and still have so little money that i had to trade JACS to maxa for the suites he built me.


[/quote]

As i said to churchhill, when we where debating going to wild space, i myself proposed that and was immediately told it was completely in-viable and would not even be considered. Like I also told churchhil, if you think it is viable, prove me wrong. Take a couple alts, start a small team, use only Lac 16 kits, talk shit to AS for a month and see where it gets you.



Awsome, another person who does not know that Dementium BP is tech 20 and thus cannot be built on Earthforce layer..... GOod to have so much support here.



Kikale Mzungu are 6.5 billion each, for 3 gals 25 kits that is 500 billion. And those would HAVE to be bought because they only come out of WS ruins.

How is any of the rest of this relevant to anything being discussed? You think you can hold DF300 systems with Laconia t16's? Please, show me maxa, i am watching.


The hilarious part is that it is the sheer inconsistency of your own responses that is keeping me going here. "People should buy the laconia sheets, but farm the dem frags" 'Laconia t16's will work fine, but i am using Mzungu myself" "People should seize 2-3 boarder galaxies, rather then 2 boarders and some interiors, nono, dont pay attention to what every other team is doing, do what i say not what i do!" If i saw a every team using Lac16's for defenses, i might consider your arguments valid, but as of right now i have seen exactly ZERO teams doing that, so i am going to assume it is not.

WHat i have seen is teams using buffers by the millions to finance Dem kit construction.... Which brings us full circle to the issue of too few prom belts on EF layers and one particular player who is making this problem massively worse.

Time to bring back f2p base wars yet?

Hober, either you are missing part of the arguement or I am.

What I just read was

ENK; you do not need more then 2 galaxies becouse only a handful of your 50 players will be going to ws, even though you are going to need all of them to contribute inorder to go.

ME; why the hell would they contribute if they where not going?

YOU; they age greedy for not contributing if they intended to go, that is the problem!


This sensation of having three entirely differant converasations is overwhelming.

You lay some bases and transfer them to the players. It takes a few minutes of their time. If they won't even pull that much for the team, you truly should boot them.

I have never suggested or recommended using T16 kits as the primary defense line for DF300. My outline for DSF at DF300 was for SM20 players backed up by random SM16s. So don't put words into my mouth. You can take a reasonable three to five galaxy spread at the low DF ranges with T16 bases as you build up resources to build and or buy SM17+. Anyone who is actually in the DF250-300 range is massively recommended to have at least five Ada T20's and at least all your exe kits T16 or higher, using Demented kits or better. I personally recommend 10 ada T20s from experience.