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Post Re: Expand EF buildable space to include W2
is it just me or

is the vast majority of this thread rendghast vs. devs+churchill with some sprinkles of other people shitposting?

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Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:53 pm
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Post Re: Expand EF buildable space to include W2
Max235 wrote:
Bankrolling a team requires colonies or IC, as that is the only way to gain the massive amounts of money a team would need to barter with other teams for large contracts. EF Layer is inefficient and not designed for bankrolling a team.


HURRAY maxa finally understands the issue!. REcap for those who missed alot. Prior to the IC introduction, there was a certain progression nearly all teams where expected to go through. 1) assemble team, 2) build funds with Y extensions and other items on EF layer. 3) go to wild space 4) either fight off other teams in wild space or loose and repeat step 2.

It was not merely possible to bankroll a team on earthforce layer, it was EXPECTED that you would do that becouse wildspace was so difficult. And while some reduction in the costs of WS has occurred, the basic premise has not changed, new and growing teams will need a location to build forces prior to a wild space run, and anyone who thinks otherwise is either lying or stupid.

anilv wrote:
So in order to capture another 5 Pretty Boys, do you need to build three new Leopards every time?


Ok, Trying again.

Step 1 was; Do both Auric and DG, gets me 187 million and change
Step 2 was ; Take 300 million out of storage to buy items for the Leopards
Step 3 was ; Spend 285 million equiping the leopards
step 4 was ; go hunting Pretty Boys, forgetting i still had 15 million extra on the ship from equipping the leopards.

So no, i do not need to build 3 leopards every time, which is WHY i am saying the 15 million came from the leopards and not from the Revenues.

RandomDude3P1C wrote:
I don't think you understand what our store is going to be meant for. No we aren't going to sell ingame commodities in this store...


The what specifically will be sold in the store? NEarly every game i have seen with an in game item shop sells....items.

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Fri Sep 22, 2017 2:59 am
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Post Re: Expand EF buildable space to include W2
The "lesser" personal income I get from dging/capping/prospecting/trading can be used as a stepping stone. I don't expect a new team to be churning out ada kits from day one, or even day 60. I do expect teams that want to grow and make money to build in the fringe galaxies using cheap station kits, augmenters, and drones.

Ignoring the one bored player/team that finds affront to this, because in reality higher end teams don't want worse galaxies unless they can't get better galaxies, the new team only has to deal with other small teams and maybe one or two larger team that wasn't strong enough to play with the sharks.

It takes communication, coordination, some trust, and determination, though. A team that makes money will be the fastest way as an individual to grow. People on their one man team take forever to progress. There are people in this game that have been here for years and still haven't hit T21. Because they did every single thing by themselves.


Fri Sep 22, 2017 4:17 am
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Post Re: Expand EF buildable space to include W2
lrellok wrote:
The what specifically will be sold in the store? NEarly every game i have seen with an in game item shop sells....items.

The augmenter and ship item-forming items currently from Free Market that require SP to use.
The 5% global XP bonuses that require SP.
Add character slot to account.
Skins.

I'm not sure what else there will be, as I can't remember where the list is, the screenshot I have of the UI has 6 tabs for different things; one of which is skins.

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Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:54 am
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Post Re: Expand EF buildable space to include W2
cej1120con wrote:
is it just me or

is the vast majority of this thread rendghast vs. devs+churchill with some sprinkles of other people shitposting?


TBH I'd really like to hear some objective points from both sides of the argument on how this would help or harm the game.

So far this thread reads as 12 pages of "I want to do the thing" followed by "Don't do the thing, do the other thing." I'm not seeing anyone making convincing argument along the lines of "The thing is objectively good, I'd support the thing even if I was unable to do the thing myself." or "The thing is objectively bad for reasons other than contrarity and the availability of other things to do."


Sat Sep 23, 2017 5:02 am
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Post Re: Expand EF buildable space to include W2
iwnh01 wrote:
cej1120con wrote:
is it just me or

is the vast majority of this thread rendghast vs. devs+churchill with some sprinkles of other people shitposting?


TBH I'd really like to hear some objective points from both sides of the argument on how this would help or harm the game.

So far this thread reads as 12 pages of "I want to do the thing" followed by "Don't do the thing, do the other thing." I'm not seeing anyone making convincing argument along the lines of "The thing is objectively good, I'd support the thing even if I was unable to do the thing myself." or "The thing is objectively bad for reasons other than contrarity and the availability of other things to do."


There is nothing objectively bad about any of the gameplay Rendghast has been involved in. It's just that he is trying to accomplish some things that aren't easy to do if you use his play style. We have been pointing out some possible alternate play styles he could adopt in order to make more progress in the game. We have also offered the critique that his current level of dedication in the game may not be sufficient for what he wants to accomplish. There is nothing particularly normative about the critique. He is welcome to play the game however he wants.

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Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:24 am
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Post Re: Expand EF buildable space to include W2
That's the gist of things up to this point. I'm just saying that potentially the suggestion is worth discussing on its merits.
If it turns out to be a good suggestion which was suggested for a bad reason then it would still be a good suggestion.


Sat Sep 23, 2017 8:06 pm
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Post Re: Expand EF buildable space to include W2
iwnh01 wrote:
That's the gist of things up to this point. I'm just saying that potentially the suggestion is worth discussing on its merits.
If it turns out to be a good suggestion which was suggested for a bad reason then it would still be a good suggestion.


I already said we are capable of toggling player building in EF layer W2 at a moment's notice.

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Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:42 pm
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Post Re: Expand EF buildable space to include W2
anilv wrote:
iwnh01 wrote:
That's the gist of things up to this point. I'm just saying that potentially the suggestion is worth discussing on its merits.
If it turns out to be a good suggestion which was suggested for a bad reason then it would still be a good suggestion.


I already said we are capable of toggling player building in EF layer W2 at a moment's notice.

Can you also allow real termites to exist in that area? Perhaps with faster growth rates so it'd be as bad as low DF w3 while statistically worse galaxy quality?


Sat Sep 23, 2017 10:13 pm
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Post Re: Expand EF buildable space to include W2
iwnh01 wrote:
That's the gist of things up to this point. I'm just saying that potentially the suggestion is worth discussing on its merits.
If it turns out to be a good suggestion which was suggested for a bad reason then it would still be a good suggestion.


Very well, objective arguments have been requested and shall be provided. Obviolsyi cannot predict the future in stark and unalterable terms, however i can make inferences based upon observation and draw conclusions from them. The proposal i originally made was "Expand EF build-able space to include W2".

The merits of this suggestion as i see them are as follows

1) Prevent a single player or otherwise aggressive team from grabbing all of a particular resource on Earth Force layer. At the start of this uni, Neon made a grab for every colonization planet on Earth force, and got most of them. Not to use them, but simply to troll free to play players. At least one or two people i know about quit the game because of this, their colonies are in Subra, I got them off Neon in the hopes of getting the player to return, but he was already gone. Further, the team Second Flight has made a grab for every prom belt in Earth force layer, seemingly operating on the same principles as Neon was. This represents a problem as we go into steam, if a small number of players are able to troll the entire new player area, then we are not likely to keep new players.

2) Encourage more building on Earthforce layer. Historically we have seen a number of smaller teams getting clobbered in WIld Space and either quitting the game or merging with larger teams. This is in fact the standard play model described to new players: Begin in Earth Force, Build Resources, Go to WIld Space, Get Clobbered, Go back to Earth Force and build resources. However, Earth Force has never been the best place to rebuild, as consistent complaints have shown. If we wish new players and new teams to join and stay, a safe building zone before they proceed to PvP is necessary. No one believes that a team could hold any territory in wild space with stock loaded tech 16 kits.

3) Encourage more Free to play and casual players to join and stay Most businesses have come to understand that the best advertising is word of mouth. Nothing encourages you to start playing a game like hearing your friends tell you how kool it is. This principle is why so many games these days, WoW, WoT, LoL, are free to play with paid bonus content. The idea that large number of free players will bring in even larger numbers of paying players is becoming a staple of the gaming industries financial future.

Further more, the overwhelming majority of players are casual. Most MMO players spend only 20 hours a week playing while gamers on average play as little as 6 hours a week. Clearly, a Wild space run that might well require upwards of 30 to 40 hours a week play time to build for is not going to interest the majority of people showing up. A large safe build-able zone would give these players something to do, and contribute to the servers economy besides.

Stabilize the servers Economy Recently we have seen a large increase in prices, however i am not so certain it is due to inflation. A number of people in this thread have stated that they will frequently sell items to the AI shop rather then vend them to other players. This behavior would obviously result in limited supply, leading to higher prices. Allowing large number of f2p players space to build will result in an increase ins supply, lowering prices for everyone.

Max235 wrote:
Can you also allow real termites to exist in that area? Perhaps with faster growth rates so it'd be as bad as low DF w3 while statistically worse galaxy quality?


I have repeatedly suggested and advocated for Mira based termites to be in EFW2, as their resistance to laser would force good base building skills onto the people there. That is an entirely reasonable position i fully support.

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Sat Sep 23, 2017 10:17 pm
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Post Re: Expand EF buildable space to include W2
Equipping a different weapon doesn't mean good base builder. It means a builder who paid attention to basic ai, because bases don't come with the laser equipped.

Ideally termites would have solid resists to most damage types, forcing people to either:

1) build more dps and hps to ward off termites

2) build a variety of damage types to get around strong resists

What I'm hoping is to have termites where builders need to aug their bases, use a multitude of different weapons, and deploy drones. Right now no one needs to, and so no one does.


Sat Sep 23, 2017 10:36 pm
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Post Re: Expand EF buildable space to include W2
anilv wrote:
iwnh01 wrote:
That's the gist of things up to this point. I'm just saying that potentially the suggestion is worth discussing on its merits.
If it turns out to be a good suggestion which was suggested for a bad reason then it would still be a good suggestion.


I already said we are capable of toggling player building in EF layer W2 at a moment's notice.


Absolutely correct, you did. Would you mind if I ask if that supports an argument for or against it being a good idea?


Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:14 am
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Post Re: Expand EF buildable space to include W2
iwnh01 wrote:
anilv wrote:
iwnh01 wrote:
That's the gist of things up to this point. I'm just saying that potentially the suggestion is worth discussing on its merits.
If it turns out to be a good suggestion which was suggested for a bad reason then it would still be a good suggestion.


I already said we are capable of toggling player building in EF layer W2 at a moment's notice.


Absolutely correct, you did. Would you mind if I ask if that supports an argument for or against it being a good idea?


No, but it's absolutely relevant to the discussion nonetheless. The dev team is able to defer the debate on whether it's a good idea by pointing out that we are able to make it happen at a moment's notice if it ever becomes abundantly clear that it is the right thing to do. This means that it's pointless to argue about it right now.

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Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:38 am
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Post Re: Expand EF buildable space to include W2
I agree with you 100%, it is pointless to argue so let's not do that. I only mean that If you or anyone else feel like discussing the pros & cons of a suggestion I'd be interested to hear what they had to say. If I were in a position where I was able to enact change in something for the better that would be even more the case.


Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:42 am
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Post Re: Expand EF buildable space to include W2
anilv wrote:
The dev team is able to defer the debate on whether it's a good idea by pointing out that we are able to make it happen at a moment's notice if it ever becomes abundantly clear that it is the right thing to do. This means that it's pointless to argue about it right now.


Non sequiter. Simply becouse you are able to do a thing is not a reflection of whether doing it is or is not a good idea. Thus, that you are able to do it at a moments notice defers nothing at all., nor does it make anything pointless. Do we defer the debate over whether sentient ai are good until they are already online? We have debate prior to implimentation becouse we desire to avoid problems.

In short, you are in a 12 page arguement that now is the time. And arguing you can do it whenever is not a responce to that.

All I then need to say is "kool, please do it now."

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Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:03 pm
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