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Post Rebalance IC prices to All t0 are market viable.
Recently i had an extended arrangement about the lack of availability of prom. Having decided to give my opponents every possible benefit of every possible doubt, i setup this uni to function ENTIRELY WITHOUT PORM! And immediately ran into a concern.

The T0 single item IC commodities have now been reduced to such a low price that it is functionally impossible to make any money off of them. I have built two systems this uni with 200 Silicon extractors between them and have been flatly told that the 3 million per day extraction was not worth bothering with, unless sub buffers where involved somehow. Now 3 million extraction for w1 is incredible, well beyond what i would normally expect, with every station on "A Lot" level of extract point.

Now, there are two problems with this. First, most of the edge systems in wild space have "A Lot" levels of extraction for most of their slots. SO this is not simply a "Your on EF layer" problem, if i was using "Bunches" it might be, but it is not. Second, The fact that the price changes so drastically between "Uses Prom" and "Not Uses Prom" is absurd, and i would like to demonstrate that below.

Now, for this example, i am going to use the values in the commodities list here for my example.

Metals = 90 credits
Silicon = 50 credits
Nuclear Waste = 500 credits
Promethium = 18000 credits.

SO, one SUb shield Buffer requires 1000 metals (90,000) 500 silicon (25,000) and 300 nukes (150,000) plus 25 prom (450,000), for a total of 715,000 credits to build.

These sell for 1 million credits each. I can literally BUY the items from and ai base, build the buffers, and sell them back to the same AI base. That is absurd.

Now, let us compare this to the other three.

Steel Girders are 90,000 in materials and sell for 16,000
Sentient Bots are 25,000 and sell for 12,000
Fusion Cells build at 150,000 and sell for 22,000

Any way you look at it, that is a balance issue. The prices of IC should have some relation to the items they are built out of, at present it looks more like the dev team picked the one the liked and borked the rest of them.

I can think of several options here.

1) Increase the sell price of the three single component t0 commodities to Sub Buff levels. This is in my view the worst option as it would entail giving people the ability to buy AI shop Materials and build IC infinity.

2) Drop buffer prices to single component level. This would enrage the current ws player base but probably be the overall best for the game, as it entails no risk of inflation and means you can no longer buy AI materials to build items. Also, it would encourage people to move up the IC chain a level or two.

3) Move t0 IC to Earthforce. As i have been consistently accused of proposing things benefiting myself even when i am making entirely neutral proposals, i will hence forward add one entirely selfish proposal to each recommendation i name simply to provide a point of reference for people. This would also have the added benefit of clearing WS of people who anticipate getting t0 IC but not t1 or t2 IC.

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Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:15 pm
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Post Re: Rebalance IC prices to All t0 are market viable.
For starters, most people who make money off IC look at Loads of/Plenty of locations. And not only that, they are looking at on average 10 bases worth of that per galaxy for Metals/Nukes/Silicon and 5 for Oats/Babs. That is where you're getting "advice" from.

Provided I can move this all to a location to convert into IC (or can flutter between my ExE bases with a Sphere), that's about 31m of each, and about 12m of nukes. Before Exe skill, which people normally have at 20-25.

At 3000 per Steel Girder, that comes to be about a billion credits per day worth of IC. And the AI base will consume about that much per day.


Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:03 pm
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Post Re: Rebalance IC prices to All t0 are market viable.
lrellok wrote:
Metals = 90 credits
Silicon = 50 credits
Nuclear Waste = 500 credits
Promethium = 18000 credits.


I would love for you to show me a way to liquidate millions of metals at 90 credits each. The same goes for the rest of those items. Those prices are only valid at very small trading volumes, which means they have nothing to do with the IC market.

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Sat Nov 18, 2017 2:45 am
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Post Re: Rebalance IC prices to All t0 are market viable.
anilv wrote:
lrellok wrote:
Metals = 90 credits
Silicon = 50 credits
Nuclear Waste = 500 credits
Promethium = 18000 credits.


I would love for you to show me a way to liquidate millions of metals at 90 credits each. The same goes for the rest of those items. Those prices are only valid at very small trading volumes, which means they have nothing to do with the IC market.


Yeah. I did some rough math on how many AI bases I would need to be selling Metals to in order to keep up with the consumption of *one* Steel Girder base, and the number ranges anywhere from 30 AI bases to 60 AI bases. This is from a DF200-240 gal, too.

Imagine what would happen if I used DS's gal or heaven forbid multiple galaxies.


Sat Nov 18, 2017 3:18 am
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Post Re: Rebalance IC prices to All t0 are market viable.
Old extension Y sell trick gained 17.4 credits and IC system was modelled to replace it. As enk said, those numbers are only for small volumes. You need to make colonies in order to sell at those prices.


Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:12 am
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Post Re: Rebalance IC prices to All t0 are market viable.
you need to knock a zero off all your values

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Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:01 am
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Post Re: Rebalance IC prices to All t0 are market viable.
anilv wrote:
I would love for you to show me a way to liquidate millions of metals at 90 credits each. The same goes for the rest of those items. Those prices are only valid at very small trading volumes, which means they have nothing to do with the IC market.


I would love for you to show me a way to liquidate millions of Prom at 18000 credits each. This is called a non sequitur enk, that i can liquidate neither prom nor metals has nothing to do with the existing price structure of IC. The fact remains buffer prices are inordinately high for no apparent or sensible reason.

Antilzah wrote:
Old extension Y sell trick gained 17.4 credits and IC system was modelled to replace it. As enk said, those numbers are only for small volumes. You need to make colonies in order to sell at those prices.


I have made colonies before, this was intended as a test of IF IC where as viable as colonies, and they are not, with one single exception. I am asking, if there is only going to be one singe IC that is market viable, why are the rest of them there, or alternately, why are the rest of them not viable, or alternately, why are the rest of them not f2p available just like extension Y's where? Fine Space Whiskey was an excellent source of EF income prior to this, but got ganked for the project because "We is lazy".

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Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:12 pm
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Post Re: Rebalance IC prices to All t0 are market viable.
Are you actually buying T0 commods to convert into IC based on average prices that AI bases sell for?

Or are you trying to use small transaction prices for massive bulk transactions? You do know if I buy 200 train cars of grain, that each individual train car's grain costs less than *just* buying 1 grain car worth due to energy savings.


Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:19 pm
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Post Re: Rebalance IC prices to All t0 are market viable.
I think the idea is that you make up lower profits on the ICs with volume, for example you need to use ICs in order to sell promethium in volume. The same with the other t0 commods.


Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:58 pm
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Post Re: Rebalance IC prices to All t0 are market viable.
urzaserra256 wrote:
I think the idea is that you make up lower profits on the ICs with volume, for example you need to use ICs in order to sell promethium in volume. The same with the other t0 commods.


Which i would have absolutely no objection to if all IC where being treated the same. However, one iC (buffers) is being treated as a solo sale commodity while all the others are treated as bulk.

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Sun Nov 19, 2017 1:37 pm
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Post Re: Rebalance IC prices to All t0 are market viable.
lrellok wrote:
urzaserra256 wrote:
I think the idea is that you make up lower profits on the ICs with volume, for example you need to use ICs in order to sell promethium in volume. The same with the other t0 commods.


Which i would have absolutely no objection to if all IC where being treated the same. However, one iC (buffers) is being treated as a solo sale commodity while all the others are treated as bulk.


Wrong.

All the Prom ICs and Tier 1+ ICs are treated for high prices.

The reason prom might be that way probably stems from the fact it decays and is used everywhere.


Sun Nov 19, 2017 1:42 pm
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Post Re: Rebalance IC prices to All t0 are market viable.
Cyborg Brigades and Sub-Shield Buffers are considered tier 0.5 ICs due to the following two factors:

1) They require all three "basic" tier 0 ICs (Steel Girders, Sentient Chatbots, Fusion Cells). This puts a greater load on your operation.
2) They also require an ingredient whose volume is more limited.

In this way, the two tier 0.5 ICs are conceived as a means for advanced industrialists to monetize their Promethium and/or Peasant production. We don't really think of them as a way to liquidate Metals, Silicon, and Nuclear Waste, so the value of these commodities doesn't really correlate to the value of the tier 0.5 ICs.

Sub-Shield Reactors are also tier 0.5, but no one is complaining about those.

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Sun Nov 19, 2017 2:45 pm
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Post Re: Rebalance IC prices to All t0 are market viable.
anilv wrote:
Cyborg Brigades and Sub-Shield Buffers are considered tier 0.5 ICs due to the following two factors:

1) They require all three "basic" tier 0 ICs (Steel Girders, Sentient Chatbots, Fusion Cells). This puts a greater load on your operation.
2) They also require an ingredient whose volume is more limited.



This is already accounted for in my calculations Enk, so Strawman. Le me repeat IF Sub Shield Buffers where priced at 1/2 to 1/5 of their component costs, and that price was 1million, credits, this thread would not exist, i would never have complained in the first place. The price of buffers is MORE then the cost of their components. That they are tier .5 is irrelevant, that they require more ingredients is irrelevant, they are priced disproportionately to their construction cost.

anilv wrote:
In this way, the two tier 0.5 ICs are conceived as a means for advanced industrialists to monetize their Promethium and/or Peasant production.


To which i have no objection at all, IF they are less then their component costs. In fact the reason i am not complaining about cyborg Brigades is that peasents price is 200 times 500 for the build, plus 262,000 for the other components is 362,000 credits in components for an average sale price of 178,000. SO again, the cost of the components is GREATER then the sale price, EVEN in tier 0.5

Your running out of legs here enk.

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Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:46 pm
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Post Re: Rebalance IC prices to All t0 are market viable.
I don't think there is a strawman to attack here, Rendghast. Your proposition puts T0 Commods at maximum prices. I would really really love to have a system where I could liquidate my 1 billion a day metal income for 90 credits per. But sadly with that volume, such system would be ridiculously overpowered. That's JUST Metals. I'm not factoring Baobabs, Space Oats, Silicon, or Nuclear Waste. Even if the AI bases could consume that much metal income per day, I still need 100 AI bases to match my personal production. And we're assuming no one is competing with me.

IC is intended for the bulk market. The prices on IC stems from people extracting it for free, because the volume to which they extract is so great that no sane person would ever consider liquidating it all at top tier market prices.

No one is buying T0 commods from near empty AI bases to base production costs on T0.5 IC. At the very most, people would buy T0 commods from nearly full AI bases, which I can assure you are not 90 credits per Metals.


Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:05 am
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Post Re: Rebalance IC prices to All t0 are market viable.
lrellok wrote:
Your running out of legs here enk.

No u


Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:47 am
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