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DD cost disparity
http://forum.starsonata.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=63359		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  Xonok2 [ Sun Dec 17, 2017 6:59 pm ]
Post subject:  DD cost disparity
DD is basically OP because it gives the benefit of 3 skills at very low cost.
Currently, tech 1 drones are weak, tech 2 are fine. Tech 3 and beyond are crazy.
Why? Because drone deployment scales the tech of 3 relevant items: energies, shields and weapons. As such, getting levels in drone deployment is like getting levels in EE, shielding and weaponry at the same time, MULTIPLIED BY 3 because you can place 3 drones. Let's let the amount of drones be for a while and concentrate on the cost.
SP costs(DD):
Level 1: 4
Level 2: 4 (8 total)
Level 3: 4 (12 total)
SP costs(weaponry+shielding+energy):
Level 1: 9
Level 2: 12 (21 total)
Level 3: 15 (36 total)

In other words, with a single tech 3 drone you get the benefit of having weaponry 3, shielding 3 and electrical engineering 3 in addition to whatever other power you might have. This is while understating the amount of skillpoints you need to actually increase in techs. Piloting is expensive, but a requirement for drones, so I left it out of comparison.
However, this is leaving out that you can place 3 drones, which multiplies the effect of all those things further.
As such, the real cost of DD if we assume it's so powerful should be:
Level 1: 27
Level 2: 36 (63 total)
Level 3: 45 (107 total)
...
Level 20: 207 (2250 total/450 levels)
But let's face it, those numbers are ridiculous. Despite drones being powerful in 3's, having the entire cost scale like that would be bollocks. Getting DD alone is not viable, because you still need to survive while your drones wreck shit and you need energy to place drones. Also, those numbers would just plain suck.

Hence the proposal for DD:
Level 1: 6
Level 2: 9 (15 total)
Level 3: 12 (27 total)
...
Level 20: 63 (690 total/ 138levels)

Comparison(weaponry):
Level 1: 4
Level 2: 5
...
Level 20: 23 (270 total/ 54 levels)
Author:  nc44 [ Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: DD cost disparity
Or... just leave it at 4 a level since everyone can have them so it's not really op or broken.

On top of that they're one of the biggest supports recommended to newer players because of how agreeable and attainable say, magic attack drones, are.
Author:  Xonok2 [ Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: DD cost disparity
This suggestion is for Hober, not someone who thinks balance doesn't matter because everyone can use OP shit.
Author:  MasterTrader [ Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: DD cost disparity
Xonok has a very good point. Drone Deployment being so cheap, skill point wise, makes no sense when you consider how expensive it is to level the three core skills neccessary to use similar gear to what you would expect the drones to use.

Increasing the skill point cost would mean that Drone Deployment wouldn't be the most efficient use of skill points anymore, but on par with other options. Maybe something similar would need to be done with Remote Control.
Author:  Xonok2 [ Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: DD cost disparity
I will make a similar suggestion for RC, but it's better to do one thing at a time.
Hober asked for numbers. Well, here are the numbers. Now I'm just waiting for things to work themselves out.
Author:  lrellok [ Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: DD cost disparity
Better idea; change the requirements for drones to include the skills you would normally need to use the items they carry.

SO in principle a tech 5 drone would require weapon 5, shields 5, energy 5, and DD 5. This would mean that people who are not Engi can use them normally at the expected level while engi are required to sink skill points they same way everyone else is.

and yes, this would give the devmin something to do other then contemplate new nerfs, what a happy coincidence!
Author:  Max235 [ Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: DD cost disparity
lrellok wrote:
Better idea; change the requirements for drones to include the skills you would normally need to use the items they carry.

SO in principle a tech 5 drone would require weapon 5, shields 5, energy 5, and DD 5. This would mean that people who are not Engi can use them normally at the expected level while engi are required to sink skill points they same way everyone else is.

and yes, this would give the devmin something to do other then contemplate new nerfs, what a happy coincidence!


Would be nice assuming the Tech 5 drone has a Tech 5 weapon, shield, energy, radar, and equipment.

How would you balance DD around a Tech 11 drone with a Tech 9 weapon, a Tech 7 energy, a Tech 13 shield, and a T20 radar?
Author:  nc44 [ Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: DD cost disparity
Xonok2 wrote:
This suggestion is for Hober, not someone who thinks balance doesn't matter because everyone can use OP shit.


It's not strictly that everyone CAN it's that everyone DOES.

When you change this, you change the meta.

Meta right now is Engi/FC for levelling. Switch when levelled.

This breaks the current meta and creates whole hog of balancing for the devs.

Edit: It's not that I'm against your idea, it's just a whole lot of work to address problems that could be solved by buffing the other classes in the earlygame. Which is less work.
Author:  Xonok2 [ Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: DD cost disparity
It doesn't really. We're talking about changing the cost of 1 skill.
Your proposal of buffing everything else would fail for several reasons:
1. It's not a class issue, because the skill is available for everyone.
2. It's a ton of work to figure out a way to buff 6 classes in such a way that they would match up with the other 2 without messing something up further. Furthermore, the balance between classes is far more complex than you suggest with "just buff everyone else".
3. It's not a lot of work. It's changing the cost of 1 skill to match with the power it gives, just like every core skill already does.

When you fail at basic comprehension like that I just can't take you seriously.
Author:  MasterTrader [ Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: DD cost disparity
Engineer and FC are used to level because they are far and away the most skill point efficient ways to level, and allow you to gain levels with minimal interaction with the game world. You get a lot of power for little investment in skill points. One of the biggest contributors to that is the cheapness of Drone Deployment and Remote Control, even though they facilitate the use of force multipliers that you cannot keep up with by leveling the appropriate core skills.

Reigning that in, and making it so that it is not so obviously skill point efficient to just spam Drones, puts other classes on an even playing field without crippling Fleet Commander or Engineer. They will still be able to level and progress, but that progression will not mean that they skip through tech levels astronomically faster than other classes.

This is by no means a complete endorsement and acceptance by the Development team of the suggestion, but I am personally convinced Xonok has a good point and will be bringing this up to the rest of the team.
Author:  lrellok [ Tue Dec 19, 2017 2:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: DD cost disparity
MasterTrader wrote:

Reigning that in, and making it so that it is not so obviously skill point efficient to just spam Drones, puts other classes on an even playing field without crippling Fleet Commander or Engineer. They will still be able to level and progress, but that progression will not mean that they skip through tech levels astronomically faster than other classes.


I am not certain that even follows. Hear me out. The reason that DD is so powerful is that while you need to take DD only as an engi, you need to take all the skills as a Zerker or a FC. However, as a solo zerk, you need DD as well, because you are going to need healing drones between DG. So if you increase the cost of DD, all you are doing is punishing every class that needs to self heal. You are not changing anything for Eng at all.

Also, RC is not cheap and still requires you to have all the base skills to capture/equip bots. I have no clue what you are even on about there.

Max235 wrote:
How would you balance DD around a Tech 11 drone with a Tech 9 weapon, a Tech 7 energy, a Tech 13 shield, and a T20 radar?


DD 11, Weapons 9, Electric 7, Shields 13, and pick another radar.

Each drone would have skill requirements equal to its equivalent items. Like i said, this will keep the devmin away from nerfs for a very long time.
Author:  Max235 [ Tue Dec 19, 2017 6:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: DD cost disparity
lrellok wrote:
Max235 wrote:
How would you balance DD around a Tech 11 drone with a Tech 9 weapon, a Tech 7 energy, a Tech 13 shield, and a T20 radar?


DD 11, Weapons 9, Electric 7, Shields 13, and pick another radar.

Each drone would have skill requirements equal to its equivalent items. Like i said, this will keep the devmin away from nerfs for a very long time.


Actually wrong. You can't look inside of a drone's inventory to actually see those items. The drone in question while it doesn't have a T20 radar, has about those techs everything else. Your suggestion makes DD a "You must be this tall..." issue, because THAT drone is actually a pretty mediocre low end drone and I can't expect people to get higher tech skills to use the shitty drone.

This is precisely like needing Piloting 20 to use the Tech 14 weapon despite the Tech 14 weapon being balanced around Tech 14 stats and thus is of no use to a Tech 20 player.

So? Change all the items? Ah, and now you see the issue. That's called a fuck ton of work to avoid a rebalance when most drones are actually underperforming and need a rebalance anyways. So the rebalance will happen. And you added 10x the workload for no reason.
Author:  nccintrepid [ Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: DD cost disparity
Drone Deployment and RC both require Piloting 20 to aquire, which means to use them they require the highest cost tech(iirc) ingame. I don't feel raising them is required due to this.
Author:  lrellok [ Tue Dec 19, 2017 1:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: DD cost disparity
Max235 wrote:
How would you balance DD around a Tech 11 drone with a Tech 9 weapon, a Tech 7 energy, a Tech 13 shield, and a T20 radar?


[/quote]

Max235 wrote:
Actually wrong. You can't look inside of a drone's inventory to actually see those items.


So you begin with a flawed question and this is somehow my fualt.....that's cute.

Based upon the ret of this reply i am assuming you oppose this proposal then? Becouse this idea is hamfisted and directly counter to your assertion that

Max235 wrote:
most drones are actually underperforming


that said, yes maxa, doing game balance property IS a fuckton of work, that is why you need paid professional developers. And doing game balance IMPROPERLY is why we keep getting the chain of nerfs from the same people who balanced the content in the first place. So if we want to avoid more mass nerfings, lets encourage game balance to be done right the FIRST time.

And you can add the skill tags to the drones while you are re-balancing them btw. The last time i heard it was one massive spreadsheet.
Author:  Max235 [ Tue Dec 19, 2017 2:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: DD cost disparity
Currently whats on the table is Ingendum is running code to automatically get the final stats of drones to be adjustable via the formula set by the dev team.

Drones regardless of actual gear tech will have stats appropriate for whatever tech the drone actually is.

Some drones will be nerfed (Primal Jungle, Bhisaj, Akramavar, etc). Most (aka 98% of them) will be buffed. New drones to fill in gaps will be added later after the forumal work is done.

What you are proposing, is to ignore all that, set skill requirements of the drone based on their arbitrarily chosen gear, and go into each and every drone to make sure drones use items that people at their appropriate tech level can get as a skill, while making sure the drone is not useless for the top end skills needed to actually use the drone in the first place. The player will not know the gear tech levels until AFTER the drone is attempted to be placed, or the gear tech levels will have to be described on the description itself. On every drone. And manual editing. Of hundreds of drones. And do this for every new drone too. Then painstakingly test each individual drone so their end stats are appropriate for the tech level of the player using the drone.
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