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Post Earthforce and F2P PVP
I recently was flying around on Space Priest Gorthar, and went to Auric Sector as it's a quick way for people who have little to no skill to make bank, and I being useless can just about kill a Goldenboy Ingot, I was ambushed by an odius miscreant in a Warden. I opened fire, my lasers searing his titanium hull, as he fired huge explosive burning balls of death upon me. As our battle raged on, and Goldenboys exploded around us like birds, as Asteroids tore into our hulls from the tears we made in each other's ships, A dark space boomerang appeared and began to heal my weary foe. Soon Auric Sector was full of fury and hatred, as more and more vicious mercenaries from Psionic Corps showed up. I felt something that resembled joy. Something that felt absolutely fantastic surged through my very veins as I battled for my very life!

I spent my early days in Starsonata being picked on and abused by people. My first team, the Commonweath turned on me because they blamed me for angering Dark Commerce and costing them a base. They blew up my first base, and left it a smouldering hunk of steaming metal.

I fled to Empire where Mauty protected me, but I didn't last there for long. I misplaced my trust and faith in Comet Chaser who eventually betrayed me and ended up with Tobal being my enemy. Tobal mercilessly abused me wherever he found me and was a nightmare in human form. He brought me misery, tears and fury. Once, he camped my dead ship for THREE DAYS so he could kill me and get my Catapult when it dropped. He was an utter monster. But boy did I admire him. I fought Tobal so many times I lost count. Every time I'd lose. He'd blaze in with an Equanimizer with 3 zeus augs and an overloader titan and tear me a new one before I knew what hit me. He was brutal, destructive, and I utterly hated him. But I admired him. He forced me to fight for my life and to become stronger. I've been involved in some of the big battles of old. I fought for my teams time and time again. I won many, many conflicts but was also defeated hundreds of times.

I think personally that we need this kind of PVP and we do need it in Earthforce Layer, even if it means expanding the layer and putting some decent resources in it. Only the middling teams will take those, because they won't be worth that much but it'll be just enough to fight over. I think F2Ps need PVP, because that makes you feel alive, and what's the point in playing a game because you're dead inside and not being able to feel that rush of: Oh god... No! NO STOP!!! Or Aha! A Sweet Victim hath crossed mine path!

I know it's been asked about for a long time, but it's something that'd make the game amazing again.

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Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:44 am
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Post Re: Earthforce and F2P PVP
the problem with full PvP servers is that they tend to be quite small and have difficulty recruiting causal players who take weeks or even months to pull together a decent build. My experience on Ragnarok Online P-servers has led me to conclude (Based on alot of observation) that a PvP server will be 1/4 to 1/5 the size of a similar non PvP server. and yes, i have watched servers go PvP and promptly loose about 80% of their player base.

So the question to me is this, Given SS2's already tenuous finances, are you willing to risk loosing most of your player base and recruitment ability over this? Because what you just described is exactly the kind of game i have no interest in playing, nor do most people i know.

My personal view is that PvP should be entirely optional, confined to specific arenas tournament style. If you want to PvP you can sit in the arena all day long, that is your choice. IF you do not want to PvP, then you simply avoid the arena.

Edit; for those about to argue EVE! EVE! EVE!, show me a "current player" map that does not have most of the population concentrated in highsec.

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Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:54 pm
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Post Re: Earthforce and F2P PVP
The problem with PVP in Earthforce Space is that it is very easy to grief people who can be proportionately weaker than yourself. For example, picking on a Tech 10 player with your Tech 17 character. Some classes are also more powerful lower levels like Fleet Commander, and will decimate Berserkers and Shield Monkeys.

On the other side, PVP forces people to band together and causes diplomacy to happen. You are less likely to start shit (looking at you, DSF) when people can hunt you down and kill you for it. You will also be more amiable to working together for common goals like raids and building because the individual player is far less powerful than a group of players.

This is what I propose:

->Allow PVP in Earthforce Space, subjected to PVP range limitations.
->Earthforce AI (Enforcers, Earthforce Logistics, Earthforce Couriers, and Earthforce Capital Ships) are set aggro to players who attack other players without a war declaration. Players cannot circumvent this by suicide to spirit.
->War declaration cost is changed to 100m credits per account per day. Defenders do not have to pay war declaration cost to return fire against players/teams that declare war on them.
->General Characteristics of each warp level:

1. Warp 0 has only Tier 0 commodities, lots of planets, and limited to Smidgen/A bit of resources. Asteroid belts do not contain fermium. Termites are limited to Rat Termites.

2. Warp 1 has only Tier 0 commodities, more normal amount of planets, and can have up to A bunch of resources. Asteroid belts can contain fermium or minor amounts of Tier 1 commodities, but not both. Termites are limited to Mira Termites (termites based on Mira UrQa) and have a maximum ceiling of about where a 2 or 3 arm Wild Space termite mound would be.

3. Warp 2 has Tier 0 and Tier 1 commodities, normal amounts of planets, and can have up to Plenty of resources. Asteroid belts can contain fermium or minor amounts of Tier 1 resources. Termites are still limited to Mira UrQa Termites, but have a maximum ceiling of a 4 arm Wild Space Termite Mound.

Galaxies in Earthforce Space cannot be owned. You don't want people to deploy bases in your sphere of operations, kill their bases until they stop coming.

War declaration is needed to freely attack permanent assets in Earthforce Space.


Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:28 pm
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Post Re: Earthforce and F2P PVP
Max235 wrote:
The problem with PVP in Earthforce Space is that it is very easy to grief people who can be proportionately weaker than yourself. For example, picking on a Tech 10 player with your Tech 17 character. Some classes are also more powerful lower levels like Fleet Commander, and will decimate Berserkers and Shield Monkeys.

On the other side, PVP forces people to band together and causes diplomacy to happen. You are less likely to start shit (looking at you, DSF) when people can hunt you down and kill you for it. You will also be more amiable to working together for common goals like raids and building because the individual player is far less powerful than a group of players.

This is what I propose:

->Allow PVP in Earthforce Space, subjected to PVP range limitations.
->Earthforce AI (Enforcers, Earthforce Logistics, Earthforce Couriers, and Earthforce Capital Ships) are set aggro to players who attack other players without a war declaration. Players cannot circumvent this by suicide to spirit.
->War declaration cost is changed to 100m credits per account per day. Defenders do not have to pay war declaration cost to return fire against players/teams that declare war on them.
->General Characteristics of each warp level:

1. Warp 0 has only Tier 0 commodities, lots of planets, and limited to Smidgen/A bit of resources. Asteroid belts do not contain fermium. Termites are limited to Rat Termites.

2. Warp 1 has only Tier 0 commodities, more normal amount of planets, and can have up to A bunch of resources. Asteroid belts can contain fermium or minor amounts of Tier 1 commodities, but not both. Termites are limited to Mira Termites (termites based on Mira UrQa) and have a maximum ceiling of about where a 2 or 3 arm Wild Space termite mound would be.

3. Warp 2 has Tier 0 and Tier 1 commodities, normal amounts of planets, and can have up to Plenty of resources. Asteroid belts can contain fermium or minor amounts of Tier 1 resources. Termites are still limited to Mira UrQa Termites, but have a maximum ceiling of a 4 arm Wild Space Termite Mound.

Galaxies in Earthforce Space cannot be owned. You don't want people to deploy bases in your sphere of operations, kill their bases until they stop coming.

War declaration is needed to freely attack permanent assets in Earthforce Space.


With PvP enabled in W2 or higher ONLY and a level cap of 1k, i could agree to this. But the risk of griefing by high level alts is to great otherwise. if you are 1k and want to go PvP, pay your sub and head for WS.

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Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:41 pm
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Post Re: Earthforce and F2P PVP
I like these suggestions flooding in. PVP would give all kind of interesting.

I think Max's punishments might be a little too harsh. But then again freedom comes at a cost so they're likely about right.

I can't agree with the war cost, however.

F2Ps are not made of money and I think it should be raised IF it seems that the cost is too cheap.

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Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:54 pm
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Post Re: Earthforce and F2P PVP
I'm not suggesting Full PVP I'm suggesting an extension on PVP limits in Earthforce layer. SS2 has tenuous finances because there is currently not a huge benefit to being P2P from what I can see. I've seen some astounding players recently who are more powerful than some P2Ps, and I'd love to see the game get a little more lawless in places. At the moment PVP hits the P2Ps the hardest. It's like a punishment.

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Fri Dec 22, 2017 3:05 pm
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Post Re: Earthforce and F2P PVP
I'm not suggesting Full PVP I'm suggesting an extension on PVP limits in Earthforce layer. SS2 has tenuous finances because there is currently not a huge benefit to being P2P from what I can see. I've seen some astounding players recently who are more powerful than some P2Ps, and I'd love to see the game get a little more lawless in places. At the moment PVP hits the P2Ps the hardest. It's like a punishment.

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Fri Dec 22, 2017 3:05 pm
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Post Re: Earthforce and F2P PVP
lrellok wrote:
With PvP enabled in W2 or higher ONLY and a level cap of 1k, i could agree to this. But the risk of griefing by high level alts is to great otherwise. if you are 1k and want to go PvP, pay your sub and head for WS.


The goal is to incentivize people fighting over resources that matter. There is some chance of people griefing other people, but finding a team and taking shelter around their permanent assets is a normal process up in Wild. It should be a normal process in EF. You shouldn't be afking out in the open.

In low DF ranges, PVP range is much more restricted. To attack a level 20 in w0, your maximum level is going to be 30, which is not much more powerful than the level 20 and a lot weaker than two level 20 characters together.

Real harassment is not tolerated in other heavy PVP-centric games like Eve Online. If people are specifically following you around to kill you, even in Null Sec, then their game admins get out the banhammer. People will be less likely to specifically target noobs because they themselves can be targeted. There is always a bigger fish.

@Tako
Original war costs from 2004 is 1m credits per character with a maximum team size of 150, per day. So 150m per day per team.

Current war costs are 100k credits per account per day per team. You get roughly a max of 320 accounts per team. That is about 32m credits per day. That is 1 DF180 boss per day from 320 different accounts. I make 80b/day with 8 accounts at my disposal from passive income. goofy has a 15-20b/account efficiency. bob has at least 15b/account. 100k/account is nothing to a team.

SRX has had Traders under constant war declaration for over a year because costs are so low. I want war declarations to actual mean that team means business, instead of the casual war declaration because it's so cheap that one character can pay war costs for the entire team by playing for 5 minutes a day.


Fri Dec 22, 2017 3:35 pm
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Post Re: Earthforce and F2P PVP
Retyu, you feel that PvP is some horrible punishment you cannt endure, so you want to inflict it on everyone else. How about we inflict it on no one? Remove PvP from all layers but WS. Problem solved.

Maxa, you are right, PvP should be the reward for acess to valuable resources. I thus revise my possission. All resources, including ada and bindo, should be extractable on EF layer if it goes PvP. If I have to fight just like a ws team does, organize like a ws team does, then I want the same rewards ws teams get.

What's that you say? No one would sub?? Well, I am glad we both understand the issue then. Maxa, there is a wondeful Mighty Jingles saying; most PvP does not come down to which team is more compitent, it comes down to which team is less shit. 80% of players could not organize a peanut butter sandwich, or fight their way out a wet paper bag. But ss2 needs their subs maxa, no matter how crap their skills are. We need ballers sub, we need rakkas sub, and we need everyone elses too. Your idea that top tier players are needed here is going to cripple us.

So here is my question maxa, where do the ballers and rakkas build in star sonata? Where is the layer for the "can't organise a PBJ payers?

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Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:42 pm
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Post Re: Earthforce and F2P PVP
The only team that is having issues organizing its players appears to be DSF, probably because a certain councilor has this obsession with recruiting bodies, being extremely casual to organization, and letting them more or less fend for themselves. I have it from the other DSF councilors that you're basically gasoline poured onto a fire when it comes to inspiring your teammates and controlling damage caused by other DSF members. I've come to conclude the only reason why you're a councilor is because there is no one else to utilize that slot.

There are plenty of nooby Premium players that get along just fine despite being being "unable to fight their way out of a wet paper bag". Though, having a super casual attitude when it comes to running a team is a recipe for disaster. Teams need to be organized; no organization means dead or dying teams.

I don't think I explained it to you to what I want out of Earthforce PVP for the people who "cannot, or *will not*, defend themselves". You see those funny Paxians in the Mira Dungeon? You know how they are allied to the player and will shoot enemies? That's what I want for people who are not instigating aggression in Earthforce Space. I attack you, and now I have to deal with your AI friends. Even better. Some AI will *spawn* next to you to defend you from the "Enemy".

Same goes for people with bases. Some kind of "Capital Ship Fighter Carrier" would spawn and help attack the enemy bases.

This greatly added defense is why resources are poor. Some poor pirate attacks 'big bad' Rendghast in DF300? An Earthforce Dreadnought AI spawns to protect little Rendghast.

As for DSF, a number of your team have some serious mouth. They're planning on going premium at the end of this universe? Keep that mouth up and they'll confirm all your paranoia conspiracies about how the big nasty PVP teams are out to grief you. I hope Chalfonts and Trixx can put a lid on them.


Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:50 pm
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Post Re: Earthforce and F2P PVP
Max235 wrote:
The only team that is having issues organizing its players appears to be DSF, probably because a certain councilor has this obsession with recruiting bodies, being extremely casual to organization, and letting them more or less fend for themselves. I have it from the other DSF councilors that you're basically gasoline poured onto a fire when it comes to inspiring your teammates and controlling damage caused by other DSF members. I've come to conclude the only reason why you're a councilor is because there is no one else to utilize that slot.

There are plenty of nooby Premium players that get along just fine despite being being "unable to fight their way out of a wet paper bag". Though, having a super casual attitude when it comes to running a team is a recipe for disaster. Teams need to be organized; no organization means dead or dying teams.

I don't think I explained it to you to what I want out of Earthforce PVP for the people who "cannot, or *will not*, defend themselves". You see those funny Paxians in the Mira Dungeon? You know how they are allied to the player and will shoot enemies? That's what I want for people who are not instigating aggression in Earthforce Space. I attack you, and now I have to deal with your AI friends. Even better. Some AI will *spawn* next to you to defend you from the "Enemy".

Same goes for people with bases. Some kind of "Capital Ship Fighter Carrier" would spawn and help attack the enemy bases.

This greatly added defense is why resources are poor. Some poor pirate attacks 'big bad' Rendghast in DF300? An Earthforce Dreadnought AI spawns to protect little Rendghast.

As for DSF, a number of your team have some serious mouth. They're planning on going premium at the end of this universe? Keep that mouth up and they'll confirm all your paranoia conspiracies about how the big nasty PVP teams are out to grief you. I hope Chalfonts and Trixx can put a lid on them.


That was incredible, you managed to type a whole page without addressing anything i said. Lemme repeat maxa, where are the 90% of players who could not organize a peanut butter and jelly sandwich supposed to go. And before you repeat "DSF only problem" i remind you that the entire reason S&P got he shat kicked out of them was everyone wanted their own galaxy and then failed completely to put up credible defenses.

oh and FYI, I AM the only active councilor. Your lies would probably work better if you bothered do 5 minutes research.

We need a space for casual players to feel welcome if the server is going to grow again. If the server is not going to grow, then why should anyone pay for it?

EDIT; just out of curiosity, has it occurred to you that the habit of using PvP harassment to silence opposition too end game player ideas might just have a teeny weeny little relation to why we only have 300 or so players left?

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Sat Dec 23, 2017 3:49 am
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Post Re: Earthforce and F2P PVP
I don't. It's sarcasm. I don't enjoy PVP as a rule, as when I'm going to DG and Goppy comes and slaps out my wild slaves just to be a pain in the ass, it's annoying, sure: But the thing is it makes me feel something inside. An attraction, the urge to get revenge. The second I blew his pod it felt incredible! If you think I can't endure pvp, you don't know me very well. :D I've been in bigger battles and wars than you can probably imagine, and against bigger threats than you will probably ever face. I think that the reason people don't go P2P these days is more so the fact that they are afraid that because they become P2P they are opened up for PVP, which they aren't used to and they become automatically afraid of. If PVP was brought down a bit people would get used to it, Pirates have always been destroyed eventually by big teams or co-operation. They're actually few and far between. PVP is actually, and has always been integral to Starsonata, and it's actually one of the best aspects to the game. I realise that you're afraid of fighting Psionic Corps and others. Hell I fought them the other day in Auric, it was a thrilling experience. I'd like to say that no one got seriously battered and that it was one hell of a battle. People are afraid of PVP in a game at the moment where there are NO real bad things that happen when you die. There are no items to lose, no problems. When it comes to bases, a bit, well a lot more can be lost in PVP, I get that, I've seen the pain players go through losing bases and I feel for them. Even fighting my team's enemy, Traders, I see them fighting with every ounce of their strength for their friends, to save their friends bases. I admire this. They have each others backs and I believe that it makes people bond strong together. PVP makes players strong, and it gives them a reason to do other things apart from sit in Auric Sector, which Ironically has actually become a PVP ground. XD I have to fight for my life 1/8 times I go in there, and it's GREAT, that's why I keep going back! There's a nice reward, and there's people trying to kill me. (And I can kill them too if I want to!) It's exciting.

lrellok wrote:
Retyu, you feel that PvP is some horrible punishment you cannt endure, so you want to inflict it on everyone else. How about we inflict it on no one? Remove PvP from all layers but WS. Problem solved.

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Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:58 am
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Post Re: Earthforce and F2P PVP
Where are the people that cannot fight their way out of a wet paper bag supposed to go? Group up or die out. Get organized or get run over.

Unless you are directly in the way of a bigger team, or your galaxy has some valuable resource someone else wants, people don't go out of their way to kill your galaxies.

With active defense, a five man team can defend a low DF gal that provides their needs for a prod and it takes a ridiculous amount of effort to knock it down. In the case of someone attacking and actually managing to kill it, they can pack the galaxy prior to the attack and go somewhere else.


Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:12 am
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Post Re: Earthforce and F2P PVP
Max235 wrote:
Where are the people that cannot fight their way out of a wet paper bag supposed to go? Group up or die out. Get organized or get run over.


SO you flatly and openly accede that the reason star sonata is dying is...you. Good, i am glad we agree on that.

Now lets can this idiotic suggestion and get moving on things that will make the server grow again. Like steam and an expansion of early game and non PvP content.

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Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:24 pm
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Post Re: Earthforce and F2P PVP
When did I say I was the reason the game is dying?

When you compete with other people, there is no "Let's all be friends." It's survival. You either adapt and overcome, or you die out.

This is a list of former countries. They died out when they could not rise up, for whatever reason, and overcome their enemies. Both internal and external.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_former_sovereign_states

We would still be living in a British Colony, or even a Native American nation, if everyone was all lovey dovey.

Competition pushes people to excel. No competition and entire empires stagnate. Too much competition and you can be stifled under a wall of bodies, though. I'll give you that. But right now there is *no* competition. So when goofy, Doran, and Traders take all your prom belts and leave you with nothing, there is NOTHING you can do to get back at them. That's the weakness of no PVP in EF. You just have to shut up or go p2p.

It also has the added side effect of making some people feel invincible. If you cannot be attacked in EF, and you only reside in EF, then you can make whatever words and sounds you like because nothing can hurt you back.


Sun Dec 24, 2017 8:01 am
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