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Post Inflation needs to be dealt with.
This is going to be long, Convoluted and Complex. TLDR: we need junkyard scrapnotes back or some equivalent mechanic, and jeff needs to start advertising again.

Six months ago when the Junkyard Scrapnotes where first taken out, i stated very flatly that this would result in widescale inflation. At the present time, Gigantic Fission Thrusts stand at 40 billion. Metis and Arson AUgs are at 5 billion. This is over a 50X increase in one uni. While i like being right once in a while, this is beyond my worst fears.

Now, before we continue I need to explain some economics. First We need to cover what is called a "Stock Flow" model of currency, which is easiest understood by a diagram of a radiator system in a house.
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Beleave it or not, this is how economists thing money works in the economy. Now, there are two ways to get money to circulate. The first is to pump money in and assume it will come out somewhere. The second is to close the system, introducing only small quantities of new money, and "Heat" the money at the bottom to get it to flow through the system. The first method is what MMO gamers refer to as 'Money in, Money Out". The second is what JYSN did.

Now if the Admins are completely hell bent that JYSN cannot come back, that is fine, we simply need another item that functions in the same way. the item must
1) be collectable easily by lower level players
2) Be required in jaw dropping numbers by high level players
3) Be required to be collected again all over again the next uni.

The point of this is to cause a steady down flow of currency from high level players to lower level players. This will result in stabilizing prices as high level players, having less money, will have more incentive to sell and will thus price accordingly.

In addition, we are going to need more new players. This uni launched with 2600 character count. That is the lowest i have ever seen. And we just launched Nitro. It should now be obvious that jeff has to start advertising. If we do not get an increased player count, prices will go no where but up as fewer and fewer sellers are available. In addition, these price increases will scare away new layers via "Sticker Shock" A player who has raced through the first 1000 levels in a few weeks is unlikely to have more then a 100 million credits, and will be horrified when they have to pay tens of billions for a skill item.

It is vitally critical that the game get new players if we want it to stay open. I feel strongly that these tho things are necessary, even critical to that process.

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Thu May 16, 2019 11:14 am
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Post Re: Inflation needs to be dealt with.
giga fission thrust has 2 people (myself included) selling on MC. that doesn't mean the price is high, it means people are too lazy to setup their shops. its a pretty common df 300 or so drop.

the other 2 augs are from maus/mini ubers, the supply will be tiny and they are very popular on bots.

both are just simple supply and demand problems.

that being said, most of the t21/t22 bps ive seen have hilariously high credit costs to combat the problems you're bringing up. most of the issues i've seen with high priced low tech items are because the playerbase is incredibly top heavy.

if jeff bothered to put us on steam and advertise we might have new players to supply the low end drops, but they would eventually become t20+ players and stop farming low end content. i'm in favor of implementing a DG tokens system where you get more tokens the higher DF you go from bosses, and a junkyard scrapnote system to convert them to literally whatever DG loot you want. the last scrapnote system we had didn't quite achieve that and was bugged to hell with tons of items being forgotten or valued incorrectly.

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Fri May 17, 2019 6:21 pm
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Post Re: Inflation needs to be dealt with.
Metis and Arson aren't worth much more than 100 million apiece, they used to be much more valuable. Giga fission is awful, it's only got a high price tag on it because people are selling it for that price. If you want one cheap I'll sell you one cheap. Your terror arouses me. You cannot judge prices on those which players set. I'm happy to sell any of those items for a lot less! XD

Value of money is deteriorating HOWEVER value of Items is deteriorating MORE, and a large amount of this is due to Nap's Economical scale. He's literally balanced everything so playing the game live and bothering to make passive income work benefits everyone. This is why I like Nap.

You cannot judge a few things on the price of items. A few unis back I was buying Serenity augmenters for 5 billion apiece, and then this uni I bought one for 250 mil. Doesn't mean anything. XD

#rendghastterror #arousal #melty

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Sun May 19, 2019 1:47 pm
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Post Re: Inflation needs to be dealt with.
All of the items you've mentioned are dropped in very specific places; there isn't much of them coming into the game.

Both Metis and Arson augmenters drop from the mausoleum. Free players getting T20 has spiked the price and certain people who religiously farm Maus (since it's really bad p2p content) aren't putting them on the market to see how it gets on.
Gigantic Fission thrust comes from a very specific place in the DG range, the Station Gear Token update has stopped certain people (definitely me) farming this range. However now free to plays can get their engine skill up to 19 simply by going to lunacy with a Dementium. (but you don't know this because you haven't played the update)

"A player who has raced through the first 1000 levels in a few weeks is unlikely to have more then a 100 million credits"

I think that's a Rendghast problem rather than anything else. I think you can leave the nexus with over 100 million credits if you scoop some minor augs.

"1) be collectable easily by lower level players
2) Be required in jaw dropping numbers by high level players
3) Be required to be collected again all over again the next uni. "

This item is called Dementium. Now go farm some frags.

"that jeff has to start advertising"

Who says Jeff wants a big game? Has jeff ever said he wants the game to grow? Has any developer ever said they want the game to be massive? No. Game crashes all the time with the players that are in it. Edit: I made this mistake also, I once thought the game could grow, but I learned quickly and stopped trying. It is what it is.

"need more new players"

No we don't, we need less Rendghast-like players. You scare more people away from the game than any kinds of radiators.

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Sun May 19, 2019 2:01 pm
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Post Re: Inflation needs to be dealt with.
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It was a normal day in Star Sonata...

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A Wild Rendghast Approaches with insane 'Economical Theories'...

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Someone Stop This Madman!!!

#halp #rendghast #invasion #economiccrisis #herpes #melty #sugoi #oniichan #nynu

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Sun May 19, 2019 2:03 pm
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Post Re: Inflation needs to be dealt with.
Retyu wrote:
#herpes


Sun May 19, 2019 2:18 pm
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Post Re: Inflation needs to be dealt with.
You're making a lot of assumptions and rushing past important information without backing any of it up. Cover 1 topic at a time. First question that needs answering is; Is there inflation?

The answer to that depends on the item. MOST items in starsonata have DEFLATION not inflation.

Btw some :popcorn: even I can't look away from - "While i like being right once in a while, this is beyond my worst fears.", is a pretty funny thing to say because of how wrong you are.

You cherry picked 2 items in the whole game and both don't represent the general economy very well. Since I don't do content I don't know for sure but Arson augs look to be a uber drop, meaning if you want one you farm for it specifically, prices for those kinds of items fluctuate greatly depending on if it's low enough for people to be lazy to just buy it or if it's high enough to motivate people to target for it. You said it's at 5b but there are 6 available at 2b, that's a 60% drop. And it gives us no useful information because someone could think that's low and buy them or other people could think that's high and try to sell their own. That 1 item doesn't matter.

As for Gigantic Fission Thrust that one is likely to keep going up. 40b isn't it's fair market value. I'd buy one for 1.5ish b and sell them for 10ish? I'd say a fair value is around 6-7, and that's only because of the engine skill, that engine being the only way for f2p to get the skill is the only reason why that item is worth so much. It's one of the only items in the game like it and a simple fix is to make it a more consistent uber drop you can farm for or add a 2nd path with some other way of lvling the skill, if that was to happen you'd see the station sell price instantly drop to the 700ish mil where it is now.

You had 2 bad examples of inflation, so lets look at some examples of deflation.

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Everything there is pretty much hit rock bottom.

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This used to be 150b.

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Everything in this tab is tanking. Minor Capacity augs used to have a sell to station price of 75m per with a demand listed on /mc in the 10ks I know because I made my first few 100b selling over 5k cap augs that I got from buying Junkyard scrap notes and then turning them into minor caps to sell (not at buy from station price but the sell to price). Sups used to be 1.5b+ and are down to 800m.

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Ada kits are down from 20b.

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This is 1b higher than build cost and there are several on the /mc.

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Anything with -ium in the name is quickly becoming worthless.

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Shit like this used to not even exist on the /mc and now there is competition for it.

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Bob used to be the only person selling this shit at like 10x build cost. And now people are undercutting 1.0 x discount build cost.

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More shit that used to not exist that people are selling near or below build cost. Almost all super items are selling for 30% of what they used to. I used to sell power smash GT for 6b and now it's not even worth my time to go in to PC and under cut.

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More shit that's almost selling for scrap that used to not even exist on /mc.

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Like what the fuck am I even looking at on this screen. Everything here is a sell price of like 1.05 x scrap value and if you /mc that shit many people are under cutting scrap value.

If you want to complain about Gigantic Fission Thrust, fine. w/e. It's 1 item and if devs/admin read this it might be enough to convince them to change that 1 skill to have a 2nd path to get it.

But all the assumptions you're making about the economy as a whole are just wrong. I can find more examples if you need me to. Almost every item in the game.

I think I should just leave it there buuuut might as well put the last nail in the coffin.

Even if there was inflation that wouldn't be bad for new players. You wouldn't believe how much money was coming out of my shop when I was over cutting aug sell to station price daily. Aug prices are pretty stable and when I'm not lazy I'll still change them to be #1 sell to station price, but they will never again be as high as there were arround December, and that inflation was amazingly good for new players.

Stop over thinking it, chill out and let the /mc do it's thing.


Sun May 19, 2019 3:46 pm
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Post Re: Inflation needs to be dealt with.
Gigantic Fission Thrust problem has already been fixed as f2p now have an alternative method of getting engine 19.


Sun May 19, 2019 4:40 pm
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Post Re: Inflation needs to be dealt with.
Will you admit you were wrong on this point as you were with docking augs Rend?


Sun May 19, 2019 5:45 pm
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Post Re: Inflation needs to be dealt with.
lrellok wrote:
a "Stock Flow" model of currency, which is easiest understood by a diagram of a radiator system in a house.

Beleave it or not, this is how economists thing money works in the economy


I'm going to need a citation on that.


Sun May 19, 2019 8:17 pm
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Post Re: Inflation needs to be dealt with.
Let's take a moment to look at skills.

1: I am P2P and end level. This doesn't mean I use T22 equipment for every slot.
2: Not all higher tech gear is as good or effective at it's lower levels.
3: People have to pay 20-30 billion for RC 20. But this is worth it because the RC 20 has reached an acceptable value for the skill. If someone really wants to buy Engines 19, they can do that for Dementium in Lunacy now.

We've reached a conclusion here. The only people interested in paying for something MORE than Dementium is if they want to use the item, when they could buy an Infinite Improbability Drive for much less than 40 billion. (Or go on Trade chat and buy a Gigantic Fission for like 5 bil or something.

As I keep saying in the game: Making money is easy. I've started a series called: Star Sonata Profit School. I'm not even one of the best money makers and I made over 13.7 Trillion last uni, maxing out my R.S.S. Wasp account with full bar skills, imp seal skills, AT, IT, etc.

I didn't even do much content, I can attribute at least 1.5 trillion to me doing content, which doesn't include Kalthi space.

Let's talk about Junkyard Scrapnotes:

I quote you: "Now if the Admins are completely hell bent that JYSN cannot come back, that is fine, we simply need another item that functions in the same way. the item must
1) be collectable easily by lower level players
2) Be required in jaw dropping numbers by high level players
3) Be required to be collected again all over again the next uni. "

JYSNs were bad for the game, they created a diabolical amount of problems that you might be unaware of, forcing mass cannibalisation of lower level items making it harder for lower levels to play the game or find items at decent value. Let's look at an item that already exists: Augs. They are always required by high level players, in jaw dropping numbers. They're easy to obtain for any player outside of the Nexus, and they're always valuable.

Then there's bindomite that you can get in low level DGs... Or the Gold you can mine in Auric Sector. Etc Etc. I'll make a series of videos on Low Level Hustles for my Profit School to help out.

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Mon May 20, 2019 12:59 am
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Post Re: Inflation needs to be dealt with.
Wheeee, that is exciting, people cannot seem to even reply to a simple proposal without resorting to insults. Well, MOST of the responses where civil so i am at least hopeful there.

ELITE wrote:
that being said, most of the t21/t22 bps ive seen have hilariously high credit costs to combat the problems you're bringing up. most of the issues i've seen with high priced low tech items are because the playerbase is incredibly top heavy.


The problem is that this is a self reinforcing problem. If mid range level equipment continues to be over priced because no one is farming it, the we are not going to get the kind of player base necessary to supply the items to correct the problem. There is a reason i keep advocating fluid utility like JYSN, you need to ability to turn low demand trash like Ion Justice, Glue Gun, or Spacey Docking augs (yeah, was wrong there, said that already) into things people actually want in order to stabilize prices.

Retyu wrote:
Metis and Arson aren't worth much more than 100 million apiece, they used to be much more valuable. Giga fission is awful, it's only got a high price tag on it because people are selling it for that price. If you want one cheap I'll sell you one cheap. Your terror arouses me. You cannot judge prices on those which players set.


You just refuted the entire basis of markets....how are you not a communist if not pure and utter bigotry retyu?

Retyu wrote:
Value of money is deteriorating HOWEVER value of Items is deteriorating MORE, and a large amount of this is due to Nap's Economical scale.


You have either discovered an entirely new economic principle here or i am not understanding what you are saying. I will go with the later. Please explain "the value of Items is deteriorating MORE".

nc44 wrote:
This item is called Dementium. Now go farm some frags.


http://wiki2.starsonata.com/index.php/DG_Drops Dementium fragments start dropping at range 2.89. That is a 250 DG 8 levels deep. We are talking about level 600 players here. If you think i am wrong on this, show me a video of a 600 anything soloing a 250 dg. Just one.

nc44 wrote:
Who says Jeff wants a big game? Has jeff ever said he wants the game to grow? Has any developer ever said they want the game to be massive?


Image And no, i do not personally consider 3000 players that large, but i would guess it is about 6 times what we have right now. If that is going to happen, the problem Elite spelled out HAS to change.

Now, ON TO NAPS RESPONSE!

You are correct that two items where not representative of the market has a whole, and i apologize for that. However, you are either misrepresenting price trends or have simply not been in game long enough. I will assume the later sir.
I know nothing about tech 21 gear prices and cannot comment there.

Blue bullets gamma have always been 25 million for the dozen unis i have been trying to sell them. Impulses have likewise always been 40 million, that is why i have several dozen in storage. The expanders increased in price 10x when they got the size boost, due i imagine to increased utility, even if they saw a small downward readjustment it is not a reflection of overall prices. Minor capacity augs a couple years ago sold for 30 million each, and i know this because i outfitted an entire fleet of 8 Flyboy rations haulers for under 700 million credits ( i was so pissed i had to pay that much) back when hober was threatening to remove JY hydros entirely. If they hit 75 million, then thats 250% of what they where two years ago.

Now, I HAVE a record of aug prices a month ago, DURING A UNI RESET, becouse i did a little experiment. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

Lets Compare Your Prices to My prices
Sup Capacity aug 400 million vs 420 million
SUp Range Aug 480 million Vs 485 million
Sup Speed aug 160 million vs 16 million WTF!
Exc Range Aug, 311 million vs 65 million
Exc Damage Aug 219 million vs 221 million
Exc Recover aug 191 million vs 198 million
Exc Firing aug 188 million vs 195 million
Exc Resistance Aug 150 million vs 40 million
Good Damage aug 193 million vs 191 million
Good range Aug 188 million vs 80 million
Good shield aug 120 million vs 151 million.

In short, those decreases that have occurred in the last month are decimal percentiles while the increases range from decimal percentiles to 10x the price! And remember, i was taking price data in the MIDDLE of a uni reset when people where buying augs to build with as fast as they hit the market. That's why i had to use buy prices, many of the augs HAD no sell price as they where sold out!

But i made a point earlier and i did not finish my thought, lets us roll the clock back two years and find some more common items. Dem, Dips and Bindo are what nearly anyone would consider a benchmark for prices in SS2.

viewtopic.php?p=767336#p767336 Two years ago Dem Frags bought for 600 million, now they are 1.1 billion

viewtopic.php?p=767012#p767012 Ten Diplomas where 10 to 15 billion (i will assume the 15 billion is the price of 5 ZACS) today those same dips cost 3 billion and ZACs (if you wanted 50 of them) Cost 370 million each, or 19 billion for 50.

viewtopic.php?p=765286#p765286 Bindo was 300 million. Three.....Hundred...Million. For bindo. Today any relevant quantity of that is 500 million. You can UB VEND bindo for 380 million right now.

In short, in the last two years Prices on basic leveling and equipment commodities have nearly doubled. We are having inflation nap. ALOT of inflation. 200% in two years. NOW, before i go into why this is bad for new players, i will leave you room to respond, i want to deal with your best arguments, not theorize about what you might say.

Sir, fire away.

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Tue May 21, 2019 3:21 pm
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Post Re: Inflation needs to be dealt with.
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What about all those poor new players who you told to not to sell any augs? Those same new players you've crusaded for because they can't earn enough credits.

They could have sold all their docking augs if not for your advice. They could have invested the credits from selling their docking augs into new gear. They could be using that new gear to hit higher DFs and harder content, where they would be making more credits, faster.

The only way literally nothing happened is if there weren't any new players taking your advice. But then I'd have to ask who you're actually crusading for.


Tue May 21, 2019 3:50 pm
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Post Re: Inflation needs to be dealt with.
iwnh01 wrote:
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What about all those poor new players who you told to not to sell any augs? Those same new players you've crusaded for because they can't earn enough credits.

They could have sold all their docking augs if not for your advice. They could have invested the credits from selling their docking augs into new gear. They could be using that new gear to hit higher DFs and harder content, where they would be making more credits, faster.

The only way literally nothing happened is if there weren't any new players taking your advice. But then I'd have to ask who you're actually crusading for.


himself.

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Tue May 21, 2019 5:09 pm
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