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Post why most of SS's content gets skipped
this is a post from reddit by a user named MormonPartyboat, in regards to WoW.

reading through it, its impossible to not see the similarities with SS and how "knowing everything" about SS actually makes it less fun. much less fun.

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The nature of MMO game design requires pacing mechanisms that can provide interest to a pretty wide array of players for a long period of time that are also robust enough to allow those that play occasionally to not be left in the dust by those that poopsock. The main pacing mechanism that WoW embraced early was obfuscation - you didn't know exactly where the quest objects were, where the guy you had to find was, what abilities the bosses had, where ideal loot is, what the mathematically best spec was, etc.

You had to figure out the world, explore, find quest givers, learn your class, determine your best gear, figure out bosses, and so on, and the only real tools you had were in-game social groups. This was before forums were a big thing, before even Thottbot. And in turn, it was the ignorance of the players - the obfuscation of the mechanics - that created a significant amount of gameplay. But the increased social aspects of the internet led to the elimination of these obfuscation mechanics. People exploring and discovering new and interesting things have a very different sense of hurdles than people who have a very clear goal and want to knock it out before moving on. Hitting 60, sitting around and trying to get into any new 60 dungeon just to see what's in it has a level of excitement and tension that is only heightened by having to hunt for a group of people to run it with. Having been 60 a long time, knowing exactly what you need to do and what boss drops the loot you want, sitting around trying to find people when your usuals are busy is just a PITA.

And that's the real distinction. People generally figured things out. They were able to look for gear with good stats for them on Thottbot, discuss builds on forums, got together to work on the math for the skills. I wrote up a guide on gearing for/running MC for the new hunters to the guild, teaching them in a few minutes of reading what I had to learn over weeks of experimentation (for example, the rogues did not think 'attack power' also increased 'ranged attack power' and the only way to show that it did was to get a bunch of attack power gear and run tests). On the one hand the guide was great for our guild, but on the other hand it eliminated those weeks of content for multiple hunters. They wouldn't need to find and gather a pile of attack power gear, figure out ideal mobs to test it on with a static amount of armor, normalize for crits, etc. They could just ask and get an answer. Or take the quest in Dustwallow Marsh, where there was a burned down inn and you were asked to investigate. You had to actually look carefully for oddities to find all three objects to inspect to continue the quest chain. That could take a solid 20 minutes of looking. Once that information made it to Thottbot, you could do it in 2 minutes. Click this object, it is right here, here is a picture with the object circled. The need to figure it out on your own gave way to the need to figure it out from in-game social groups to the need to simply google it and look it up on a community site.

And ultimately lots of the obfuscation that added content was viewed not as a positive but as a negative. Quality of life improvements, from sparkly quest objects to more direct quest directions to added graveyards to summoning stones all improved your game by letting you get right to what you wanted to do (kill things, take their stuff, click the sparklies) but also eliminated all the content that came from having to run back after dying or sit in Org /1 lfg any 60 instance or wasting time trying to figure out what things did or where to go. That's where things like cross realm battlegroups came into play - there were many servers where if you wanted to play battlegrounds, you'd possibly sit around for an hour before your queue popped. It doesn't matter how many friends you have on your server, it's not going to make the queues go faster. The addition of a much closer horde graveyard to BFD, for example, was a huge QOL improvement...but it also eliminated the banter from running back and the running jokes about groups that ended up spirit rezzing after 20 minutes because they couldn't find their way back.

Cross realm dungeons happened for much the same reason - once the better guilds stopped generally running dungeons, they became ghost towns (particularly noticeable in TBC when you needed to run normal dungeons but everyone was in heroics). But don't get it twisted - the demand for dungeons increased because of the dearth of content elsewhere. Players no longer needed to spend an hour trying to figure out a quest, spending a couple days on a zone exploring and experimenting. They just pounded the quests out in a matter of minutes, clearing the zone in 2-3 hours. And the balance of Time Out Exploring versus Time Doing Dungeons became heavily shifted towards the dungeon side of things - you didn't really have anything else to do BUT dungeon and quest before getting into raids (since Serious PvP at lower levels was pretty much a joke sans twinking). For a GREAT example of natural player motivations hurting their own content pacing, look at the arena gear fiasco in the first few seasons, before rating requirements. There were a huge amount of people who made arena teams (myself included) simply to pound out ten games, probably lose most of them, but didn't care because it got them really high quality weapons after a few weeks. That eliminated, say, grinding lower city rep for the epic caster mace reward at exalted. Those shortcuts eliminate programmed content. Put another way, the push towards cross-realm tech, dungeon finders, etc., were ways of increasing accessibility to the content that was previously only a fraction of what you did but became the primary goal at the expense of all other goals.

That's the key. The players boiled down the gameplay by understanding it. And when boiled down, there's much, much less content because of how much depends on ignorance. That's why constant distractions or change-ups 'need' to be added - sure, you knew you were going to get another hundred quests to go collect bear asses in the last expansion, but you also get pokemans. In the next expansion you're going to get another hundred quests to collect bear asses, but now you have pokemans AND interior decorating. These distractions are 'neccesary' because "collect 150 bear asses this expansion" plays towards the third pillar of WoW style MMO content - grinding. People see it, don't like it, and often outright dislike it if it's insultingly poorly hidden. Even the dumbest dumbs in the barrens could figure out that Zhevras have four hooves.

Don't think I'm talking solely about leveling content either, obfuscation extends to raids. If you join a guild, you are expected to have studied the content that the guild takes on. You should know the fight pretty well before walking into the room. You should have various addons that provide a plethora of information to make your experience as straightforward as possible - threat meters, dispel helpers, power auras, UI overhauls, etc. Rewind and Onyxia's most significant mechanic was managing threat in a world before reliable threat meters. That's not anything anymore; a raid that doesn't know how much threat the tank has to two significant figures is simply not playing right. Obfuscation is one of the easiest barriers to overcome, and is something players WANT to overcome, innately.

Fundamentally, there are three primary tools of content generation for a WoW style MMO - grinding, obfuscation, or distraction. And people are pretty much tired of that formula by this point; WoW can continue to succeed because it's very, very good at what it does on top of the advantages of the huge amount of content and history and pop culture that comes with WoW instead of, say, Rift. But the exhaustion of the design is why 'WoW killers' really haven't been able to even make it out the door: they stick to the same three tools. SWTOR is probably the best example of this; they failed to learn from many of the mistakes WoW learned from (much less the ones they didn't) and as a result felt extremely dated right out the door. It's not just them, most MMOs looking to compete with WoW have done little more than take the formula and add some kind of a twist.

To 'fix' WoW, they need to fundamentally shift the motivating factors, reward systems, and economy. EvE Online, while absolutely not for everyone, is a system that is fundamentally different at its core. That's the level of distinction from the current WoW system that needs to be achieved to really fix the problem, because the underlying game systems within WoW are severely outdated, naturally pushing players towards a few specific activities within the game. But more likely, WoW will continue doing what it's doing and being the best at it until something else comes along that is substantially different. EQ Next is the first thing that I've seen to have even some measure of promise (other than Pathfinder Online, which is heavily based on EvE's systems), but I'd levy that more towards the utter lack of game system information available than any real positive ideas they've had. A dependency on procedural content does not provide much longevity in an MMO world.

TL;DR: People playing the game want to play the game rather than sit around. The method of playing the game has become more and more narrowly defined as completing instanced content. Therefore, the game has shifted around to accommodate that demand or distract from it, rather than upset it by changing the motivating factors.


http://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/1r ... es/cdki72c


Tue Nov 26, 2013 5:32 pm
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Post Re: why most of SS's content gets skipped
LANDSWIMMER REDDITS TOO! HURRAY

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Thu Nov 28, 2013 10:28 pm
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Post Re: why most of SS's content gets skipped
SS's content is pretty boring though, its just alt+S+space bar = afk

everything is just tank and spank

most techs in SS dont even scale correctly, and the only usable tech at this moment is t20+, so noone bothers with below t20 content

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Thu Nov 28, 2013 10:47 pm
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Post Re: why most of SS's content gets skipped
Panzer50 wrote:
SS's content is pretty boring though, its just alt+S+space bar = afk

everything is just tank and spank

most techs in SS dont even scale correctly, and the only usable tech at this moment is t20+, so noone bothers with below t20 content



Everything he just said is completely correct.

Content is mechanically the same, with few exceptions, from the moment you start until the day you quit. The administration putting in game mechanics to discourage team play was also not a step in the right direction.

Then there is the way that gear levels in SS, no one wants direct mathematical improvement in higher tech levels and everyone loves to shoot down anyone suggesting that SS should go to linear progression, then everyone complains when gear is not directly better than its predecessor. y


Fri Nov 29, 2013 12:07 am
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Post Re: why most of SS's content gets skipped
everything he said is correct but none of it pertains to what i reposted.

while its true that most of SS's content is just alt+S+space bar = afk, that isnt the problem.

SS has always been like that. and yet, in the early days, WE ENJOYED IT.

why? because we didnt know everything about the game. it was all new. it was all novel. the challenge and enjoyment came from the psychological aspect of figuring out the game, of playing SMARTER not harder.

the new content doesnt have an effect because within weeks of it coming out, long before most of the playerbase has actually done the content, the top players have already figured it out, and the information ends up leaking to the rest of the players, and that denies them the enjoyment of figuring it out themselves. they spend all their time playing catchup, and the only way to catchup is to grind and manage colonies, and thats about as fun as a torn perinium.

if the admins want to SS to succeed, it needs to be a game of minds, not a game of grinds.

the only way to make this happen, is for the game structure to change, and for the game tactics to change constantly.

gear needs to be changed, every gear drop needs to have its stats randomised so that each piece is unique, preventing players from "planning" their setups, and giving them the mental challenge of figuring out how to work their best gear together.

leveling needs to change. the skill point system needs to be removed, and replaced with a levelling system based on the skyrim system, so that players advance skills based on how much they use them (rather than on their ability to complete arbitrary challenges)

the universe itself needs to change. the universe map needs to become based on planetary objects clustered around stars. each "visitable" object needs to be modelled on the gravity well system in Sins of a Solar Empire. each of these objects need to be visitable from any other visitable object, with the distance determining the travel time. no more "wormholes" in their current form, no "warp lanes" like in SoaSE. just a streamlined system based on exploring planets because you WANT to explore them, not because you have to travel through them in order to get where you need to.

planets need to be organised into solar systems, solar systems need to be organised into clusters, and clusters need to be ordered into spiral arms of the galaxy.

planets themselves need to comprise the planet/object, and cover a significant portion of the gravity well (no more tiny planets that are 1/5th the size of a dreadnought.) and the gravity well itself needs to inhibit jumps within 2-3x the radius of the planet/star

wormholes should be reintroduced after a few months as destructible/buildable connections between gravity wells allowing instantaneous travel between them.


Last edited by landswimmer on Mon Dec 02, 2013 7:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Fri Nov 29, 2013 4:12 am
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Post Re: why most of SS's content gets skipped
lol, im not sure about ALL that, but things need priorities, SS needs to focus on midgame and early game content first, make it less grindy, have returns on leveling, instant gratification items, etc. and then techs 1-20 need to scale up correctly

then they can revamp leveling system, pvp system and later do a better map system and visuals, etc.

but even before this, the one thing that needs to go in SS is Multi-clienting, the ability players have to solo grind content, so you can do t22 and olympus on your own with alot of accs, but this is also why i said SS is alt+s+spacebar=afk, because its not very hard to do this, and multiclienting therefor becomes extremely easy

as i heard it in WoW instances, things require alot more than just pressing 2 buttons, trying to multiclient an instance would be extremely difficult

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Fri Nov 29, 2013 10:27 am
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Post Re: why most of SS's content gets skipped
I don't know where I'd stand on this. On one hand, there has to be some amount of "know everything" to keep a game going. The casual player (and casual guild) does not want to play many weeks at a time to figure out that "Ranged Attack" applies to Bows AND Crossbows instead of just Bows. And at the same time, if we know "everything", things become too easy.

As for retaining customers, just look back to why almost all Reddit players left.

- The game is wayyyy too much of a grind.

- Early and Mid game are just terrible.

- The need to join a larger more experienced team or subscribe for at least a year to reach a point where you can play with the big boys.

- The appearance that to get anywhere, you'd need to Multi-Client or own more than one account.

- Badly balanced classes. Slaves paramount for leveling.

- Terrible squad role design. People become one class or another based on their personal preferences, not because the team is missing a tank or healer.

- The ability for a one or two pirates to wreck an entire team.

- Weak ass bases until you start cranking out Dem/Ada T20's.

- Unable to unseat the older player legacies anywhere. And to be crapped on by them at any time.

- Poorly designed/balanced items like the Delquad.


Fri Nov 29, 2013 11:17 am
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Post Re: why most of SS's content gets skipped
well, the new universe map and transit method should be the first priority, because the most immediate and obvious problem i notice when i log in is the ridiculous amount of time it takes to get anywhere fun.

the last time i logged in consistently and gave SS a go, i changed by zerk aug setup to make it stronger. unfortunately this dropped its speed from 180 to 60, and now travelling anywhere without getting incredibly bored is practically impossible.

a change to a system where you can jump from any "galaxy" to another with only a single jump and a chargeup delay based on the distance between the two systems, would solve this problem almost immediately.

dungeons and uber zones would only be visible from certain "gateway" galaxies, to prevent people from jumping directly from sol to the final level of iq' bana, or other bosses.


Mon Dec 02, 2013 2:44 pm
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Post Re: why most of SS's content gets skipped
landswimmer wrote:
the last time i logged in consistently and gave SS a go, i changed by zerk aug setup to make it stronger. unfortunately this dropped its speed from 180 to 60, and now travelling anywhere without getting incredibly bored is practically impossible.


Use nitro/blitz/super-blits/afterburners/phyiscan weaps/radish torch/ect... to help your speed problem. IMO there's nothing wrong with the game, it's just people do not see (or want to see) the clear-not as easy as they want it to be-solution.

If you guys think there's a gameplay error in SS, i will personally give you easy ways to solve it.

EXAMPLE: SS sucks because pirates keep killing me in me =/

HOW TO FIX: avoid them: there's an "avoid-gal" command and you can shift-right click to avoid the gal completely.

Admins and Devs aren't going to fix a problem that they already took steps to counter.
Either, you're not playing the game to the fullest (oh my zerker is super slow, EVERYTHING NEEDS TO CHANGE) and because you haven't explored all the current possiblities to solve it, you come to the conclusion that it's their fault. An annalogy would be a kid saying he cannot solve 400*321 on paper, and his calculator is broken, I cannot do it, therefor it cannot be fixed; simply do it the long way, it will still get the job done.


And no derpy, the game is not as simple as that. We just think endgame is like that because the only things we kill in the game require stuff like that. If a uber had the ability to 1hit you (i mean brutalforce) one hit you if you got in 100 distance and was comming at you like a hive bee, i personally think this game would be more exciting. We only come to that point when the things we kill for profit require that amount of work, which in my case is terrible. if all ubers did a Zeus aftershock after every damage impact, knocking you 400speed away, and was able to get heals from an Ai base that needed to be killed all the time like RP, this game would be much more fun.

We also think low lvl is terrible because things just get easier the higher lvl we get. I'm sure you remember the time you killed rattie moe, or how much of a rush you got when you were about to kill him, you know why, because it was difficult and it took skill, and you also knew you would improve as a player after killing it.

Now i'm not saying you also have to have uber SD skills to kill ubers when you get t20+, but i'm say at endgame, if you haven't discovered ways to solive simple problems like RoF or Damage or even agility that just reside in augs, you're advance way to far then your expereiance, and either need to start reading and doing mission chains or take a few African zulu steps back (sorry watched a documentary in school today.)

The only thing i wish changed for the admins is the ability to MC, because it ruins the aspect of the game:

-Endgame ubers are so easy and mellow that i can even control more then one account at the same time to complete it :P

When it should be:

- OMG this uber is so damn hard, i gotta call some teamates and scedual a run to kill it because unless we all move at the same time, we all die =/


Mon Dec 02, 2013 3:33 pm
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Post Re: why most of SS's content gets skipped
Most teams are located about 30 jumps (even with w4) from PvE content, which this game is mostly based on. A PvE game with PvP. Not a PvP game with PvE. For a Zerk, 60 speed is atrociously slow, something like 15-30 minutes of travel each way. It stops becoming a game when travel takes up 25%-50% of your game time. Not every place can be transwarped to, anyways.

And in general, 60 speed is god awful slow for combat. At the current size of Star Sonata galaxies, I would expect all ships to be flying around the 150 mark on a slow ass setup.


Mon Dec 02, 2013 4:35 pm
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Post Re: why most of SS's content gets skipped
then change your setup to go faster and use damage tweaks.

Honestly, it's a sandbox MMORPG, RPGs take time. Not everythings going to be handed down. Most teams own more then 20+ gals and build hella prawns and HM, if you were a lvl 25 complaining on how hard it is for your paximinus to get from nexus to sol, i would agree because the highest you'll be going (even if you discover afterburners and physical weps sale in all AI bases) is 130 max. But you're simply complaining about how long it takes you to get to an uber so you can just go afk. FFS you guys sound like lazy... and it's pathetic.

-Use tweaks, build tweaks, buy physical weps, use afterburners, it's not that hard; especially for an endgame team.


Mon Dec 02, 2013 6:02 pm
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Post Re: why most of SS's content gets skipped
it is an RPG, but its also a game. games are supposed to be fun.

i'm not saying i want change because the game is hard, i'm saying i want change because the game has been in decline, and is losing players, and i'm taking an educated guess at why, and suggesting ways to solve that problem.

afterburners and other tweaks do increase speed, but they dont make it any less of a pain in the ass to travel, and they require effort and time to gather materials for and build.

just because it CAN be done the hard way, doesnt mean people will bother, when they can just load up a different game and play it instead. the point of a game is not to be hard, or to maintain the status quo. the point of a game is to be hard enough and challenging enough to be enjoyable, without being too hard, or too tedious and boring to be fun.


Mon Dec 02, 2013 7:23 pm
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Post Re: why most of SS's content gets skipped
I was going to type a counter argument, but i cba anymore (idk how you adults like to argue back and forth like this lol)

I'm just going to say that the 'decline' of playerbase you mentioned is only a imagination.

Only endgame, or players who have been accused of immoral acts agaist the community as a whole are faced with the decision to actuall quit the game for which they joined.

Yes, there have been reports of Biginner players actually quiting the game, but making endgame more enjoyable has nothing to do with noob areas more enjoyable.

As there is many factors that lead to why first time players don't sub, and eventually disapare,

but just about the same number of reasons can apply to why a subed player will quit.

Personal problems like shorter time distance will, and have not affected a players ability to actually enjoy the game.

But if a AWC SD goes into nexus and shows off how fast he can go to a lvl 3 player who thinks the highest cappable speed is 100, there will be problems, because before even knowing how to properly shoot a wep, the noob is given a goal that will be un-achivable in 3-4 months.

-to meet expectations, you will mostly be told you need money.
-with the lack of money you will be earning as a lvl 100- you will be fustrated.
-fustation leads to a lack of pride, like how a crackwhore feels without her crack (you beg).
-a lack of pride can lead to un-suttle, and discraceful decisions if you still not met your expectations.(you buy credits to try and get ahead or buy an endgame account, join a team and get on their neves due to your overwhelming lack of knowledge because you've been wasting time you've could have spent doing missions and learning that you need a pod to keep half your cash after death, in sol asking for cash.)
-You commit suiside (you quit becuase you think the game is just another p2w (even though you're still f2p lol))
A simple senerio of why most bigineers quit; they say "it's to hard to get what they need(want)".

But after reading this, you've probably come up with over 5 simple solutions on how to fix this:

-don't let high lvl players into nexus.

Well define high lvl players, and even think about how this could be done/the amount of time this would take to finish.

Conclusion: this game is "UN-FIXABLE"

i quoted that because it can be fixed. but not as soon as we'd all like. we'll never be WoW, or Eve online, but we're SS, if you managed to make it to endgame, even as far enough to complain that your endgame setup is XYZ...., then what's stopping others? Just be smart and Learn2play, simple tactics as useing tweaks and skills, even building gear and doing missions haven't changed simply beacause you know everything about the game, but it should be enforced at endgame, far more in comparision to how much of the 'actual game' you need to play to get anywere at noob stage.

I guess the admins can make a better way to improve the "hard way" of conquring simple problems, like making afterburner generators that cost fuel to create on the ship, thne you could just hotkey it and if you're carrying NW, you get a Best afterburner every 2 minutes, but seriously, the game hasn't gotten any harder. Atlest we're not in the Adum GG times when you actually had to take precasions in what you did. IF it was, you'd definatly see me intercepting a group of HMs and Prawns with my Eveything gunner setup, and get some uber AFK swagg drops due to the lack of t22 GG =D


Last edited by the one on Mon Dec 02, 2013 9:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Mon Dec 02, 2013 8:11 pm
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Post Re: why most of SS's content gets skipped
You can and there have been many many counts of people getting by with under 500m for 1000 levels. The key is to obtain useful gear as you level up. That usually isn't the case in Star Sonata, because all but the top most tier is made of shit.

Also, you're being snobbish. Don't be snobbish. Plenty of low levels have quit and will continue to quit until the game has a semi decent new player experience. Just because YOU like to spend 90% of your game time doing nothing but traveling does not mean EVERYONE ELSE does. Believing everyone does is nothing short of arrogance and ignorance.

Oh, and you make the Kardashians look humble. Yeah, I'm going there. That's how snobbish you are.


Mon Dec 02, 2013 8:43 pm
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Post Re: why most of SS's content gets skipped
ok, i'm sorry

Geez =/ that hurt.

But you can't say low lvls will quit because of your high lvl problems. 3rd world problems and 1st world problems are TWO totaly different things.

But of you go over to South Africa and show them a gun made in the USA, we, got some problems. Because now everyone wants a gun because they see it's powerfull, yet, nobody knows how to build one.


Mon Dec 02, 2013 9:49 pm
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