I dont know you DW and I have no idea how you play, but from what I have seen of you in the forums you are an arrogant ass who has extreme problems with the admins authority.
It has been explained many times in this thread why a limit would need to be implemented. Voomy merely tried to explain it another manner by using yourself as the example.
You must have a reason to be arguing against this change and the only reason I can see is because it will stop you from earning loads of cash.

And it has been stated that if 1000 per tick is too low then it will be raised, that seems to be your main argument here and it has been addressed already.

The prom limit would be a necessity, as like previous times being able to sell just one commodity for a very good profit is really what the admins have been trying to prevent colonies from being...think e-nukes, peasants etc. I quite like the timer idea, as well as the prom limit, with all the other changes designed to make like SO much easier, extractor limits etc...I hardly see this limit as a problem, myself.

I also noticed that you haven't given us a number for what you think would be a reasonable cap.

I call it bitching around the bush, But i like 2 do it aswell

This is true, I haven't offered any numbers for consideration and I have my reasons for that. But let me ask you this, directly; If I gave you a number for what I though would be appropriate, would you consider it? Or would it be ignored or worse still, just given some "lip service" to make me go away?

- DW

If you gave us a number and the estimated profits from that number, and we considered those profits to be within range of what we want, we would certainly use it. You seem to put yourself up as the expert of prom sales, so having your opinion of the math with numbers and calculations would be helpful. Otherwise we'll just go with the calculations we had and adjust from there.

I don't recall stating that I'm an expert, I certainly don't think that. So far I've said that I personally sell prom to colo's and try to do so at the optimal time for maximized profits. I also said I haven't gotten rich of prom sales, even tho everyone here seems to think so. Or atleast thinks thats why I'm arguing here.

What I have asked, repeatedly, is that you guys tell me / us how you came to the magic 1,000. What was the basis for that number. If you showed me that, I may come back to you with something better or I may concur with your math. Either way what I'm seeking here is a greater understanding of what will, no doubt, affect myself and many others in-game.

I'm also still wondering why a timer necessitates a cap. A timer is not so different than having an egg timer beside your computer to time colony ticks now is it? I recognize that it will probably make things easier and more precise, but then again isn't that what all clocks do?

- DW

The math was already stated: 1000*30000*12 or about 360mil. This is obviously in really good conditions, and will probably turn out to be much lower then that so the cap will need a beef. Although really no one should be making more then 150mil per commod in my mind, so it may be about right after all.

First off, I wasn’t aware that Churchill's math was what the admins are using these days, but since Pip has said that's it, I‘ll go with that. Personally I think Churchill's calculations are far too simplistic and don’t accurately represents the actual trade environment, they give a very negative view of things. Moreover his calculations are based on profits made by a large and successful team ( which is obviously going to make them impressive ), where they should be confined to individual people and colonies.

It seems that the admins are worried about people grabbing a bunch of prom and adding it just before the colony ticks over, thus making a supposedly massive game breaking profit. Hence I’ve confined my calculations to this assumption, whether I disagree with it or not I might add. In my opinion the only way’s to have a quantities of promethium at hand is to:

A) Have a fully operational prom mine supplying so much prom that 2 hours of decay can still amount to having large amounts of prom available to sell to the colony and be capable of absorbing the costs of its production, as well as the general upkeep of the base itself. Some have already stated that they supply some 750 to 1,500 prom to one or more colonies, and I agree that's a reasonable amount for comparison. Now I can’t go ahead and do the math for this because of several reasons. The first is that I simply don’t know what formula the game uses to calculate prom decay, which I believe is the biggest cost to consider. I can make a simple sliding scale to approximate decay, but quite frankly this is highly inaccurate and I’m not going bother doing all that math for nothing.

B) The second way to have 1,000 plus promethium available is to buy it at the nearest AI base. In my opinion, this is the most likely way people get hold of bulk prom at short notice, for the purposes of selling to a colony. So the following calculations are based on this method.

-------------
This is if you went to the nearest AI base, with available prom, at various prices with enough time to get back to your colony and place it on the base.
I’ve added in an extra 20% bought to account for decay. I think that's a reasonable enough amount considering it takes time to move prom, and it’s unlikely that you will arrive at the exact moment the colony is ticking over even with a timer. Even if you where to place it on a docked ship in order to freeze it, there would still be significant decay, not only in transportation but when you open the ship and transfer it to the base. Correct me if I’m wrong or you think this unreasonable.

-------------
C = Credits, P = Promethium

These calculations at the top of each category represents Churchill's calculations. This assumes that you don’t pay for your prom, nor does it take into account any decay. Its simply a blanket calculation.

Prom Sold At Credits Equals per Tick Profit Multiplied by Daily Ticks giving Profit etc.
P 1,000 @ C 30,000 = C 30,000,000 * 12 ticks = C 360,000,000

-------------
Buying.
1) P 1,200 @ C 7,500 = C 9,000,000
2) P 1,200 @ C 10,000 = C 12,000,000
3) P 1,200 @ C 15,000 = C 18,000,000
4) P 1,200 @ C 20,000 = C 24,000,000

Per tick profits:
Assuming you sell at C 30,000 per unit every tick, this is not always the case of course.

P 1,000 @ C 30,000 = C 30,000,000

Sale Price (minus) Cost Price (equals) Profit
1) C 30,000,000 - C 9,000,000 = C 21,000,000
2) C 30,000,000 - C 12,000,000 = C 18,000,000
3) C 30,000,000 - C 18,00,000 = C 12,000,000
4) C 30,000,000 - 24,00,000 = C 6,000,000

-------------
Now daily profits:
This assumes you are at your computer 24 hours a day and are available for some 15 min’s every 2 hours to feed the colony. Personally I find this highly unlikely myself, even if you had a team-mate or two ( 8 hour shifts each ) help you out, the profits would likely be split between them.

P 1,000 @ C 30,000 = C 30,000,000 * 12 ticks = C 360,000,000
Profit (multiplied) by Tick (equals) Daily
1) C 21,000,000 * 12 = C 252,000,000
2) C 18,000,000 * 12 = C 216,000,000
3) C 12,000,000 * 12 = C 144,000,000
4) C 6,000,000 * 12 = C 72,000,000

-------------
A hardcore gamer, 12 hours at the computer i.e. 6 ticks:
P 1,000 @ C 30,000 = C 30,000,000 * 6 ticks = C 180,000,000

Profit (multiplied) by Tick (equals) Daily
1) C 21,000,000 * 6 = C 126,000,000
2) C 18,000,000 * 6 = C 108,000,000
3) C 12,000,000 * 6 = C 72,000,000
4) C 6,000,000 * 6 = C 36,000,000

-------------
A more average player, 6 hours i.e. 3 ticks:
P 1,000 @ C 30,000 = C 30,000,000 * 3 ticks = C 90,000,000

Profit (multiplied) by Tick (equals) Daily
1) C 21,000,000 * 3 = C 63,000,000
2) C 18,000,000 * 3 = C 54,000,000
3) C 12,000,000 * 3 = C 36,000,000
4) C 6,000,000 * 3 = C 18,000,000

-------------
Now we move on to the monthly figures. We assume all the aforementioned is being done each and every day for 30 days. Quite a boring pursuit if you ask me, but meh.

Monthly ( 30 days ) @ 12 ticks per day, i.e. 24 hours
P 1,000 @ C 30,000 = C 30,000,000 * 12 ticks = C 360,000,000 * 30 = C 10,800,000,000

Daily (multiplied) by Days (equals) Monthly
1) C 252,000,000 * 30 = C 7,560,000,000
2) C 216,000,000 * 30 = C 6,480,000,000
3) C 144,000,000 * 30 = C 4,320,000,000
4) C 72,000,000 * 30 = C 2,160,000,000

-------------
Monthly ( 30 days ) @ 6 ticks per day, i.e. 12 hours
P 1,000 @ C 30,000 = C 30,000,000 * 6 ticks = C 180,000,000 * 30 = C 5,400,000,000

Daily (multiplied) by Days (equals) Monthly
1) C 126,000,000 * 30 = C 3,780,000,000
2) C 108,000,000 * 30 = C 3,240,000,000
3) C 72,000,000 * 30 = C 2,160,000,000
4) C 36,000,000 * 30 = C 1,080,000,000

-------------
Monthly ( 30 days ) @ 3 ticks per day, i.e. 6 hours
P 1,000 @ C 30,000 = C 30,000,000 * 3 ticks = C 90,000,000 * 30 = 2,700,000,000

Daily (multiplied) by Days (equals) Monthly
1) C 63,000,000 * 30 = C 1,890,000,000
2) C 54,000,000 * 30 = C 1,620,000,000
3) C 36,000,000 * 30 = C 1,080,000,000
4) C 18,000,000 * 30 = C 540,000,000

-------------
Now we get to a full average universe. Defined as 3 months or 90 days. I’m going to consider the first 30 day’s a growing period, hence your colony hasn’t got to average maturity ( 6 - 7 billion population in my own estimation ). Since your population is low your colony won’t buy much, if you even bother try to sell anything but rations or peasants that is. I’ve decided to add in 20% of a month proper to represent this, I think that's reasonable enough. Now I realise this uni is peculiarly long but this is an average uni. Also we once again assume that all the aforementioned has been done, day in day out.

So this would be 30 Days Multiplied By 2.2, giving 66 Days for average universe profits.

-------------
Universe ( 66 days ) @ 12 ticks per day, i.e. 24 hours
P 1,000 @ C 30,000 = C 30,000,000 * 12 ticks = C 360,000,000 * 30 = C 10,800,000,000 * 2.2 = C 23,760,000,000

Daily (multiplied) by Days (equals) Monthly (multiplied) by 2.2 (equals) Uni profit
1) C 252,000,000 * 30 = C 7,560,000,000 * 2.2 = C 16,632,000,000
2) C 216,000,000 * 30 = C 6,480,000,000 * 2.2 = C 14,256,000,000
3) C 144,000,000 * 30 = C 4,320,000,000 * 2.2 = C 9,504,000000
4) C 72,000,000 * 30 = C 2,160,000,000 * 2.2 = C 4,752,000,000

-------------
Universe ( 66 days ) @ 6 ticks per day, i.e. 12 hours
Daily (multiplied) by Days (equals) Monthly (multiplied) by 2.2 (equals) Uni profit
P 1,000 @ C 30,000 = C 30,000,000 * 6 ticks = C 180,000,000 * 30 = C 5,400,000,000 * 2.2 = C 11,880,000,000

Daily (multiplied) by Days (equals) Monthly (multiplied) by 2.2 (equals) Uni profit
1) C 126,000,000 * 30 = C 3,780,000,000 * 2.2 = C 8,316,000,000
2) C 108,000,000 * 30 = C 3,240,000,000 * 2.2 = C 7,128,000,000
3) C 72,000,000 * 30 = C 2,160,000,000 * 2.2 = C 4,752,000,000
4) C 36,000,000 * 30 = C 1,080,000,000 * 2.2 = C 2,376,000,000

-------------
Universe ( 66 days ) @ 3 ticks per day, i.e. 6 hours
P 1,000 @ C 30,000 = C 30,000,000 * 3 ticks = C 90,000,000 * 30 = 2,700,000,000 * 2.2 = C 5,940,000,000

Daily (multiplied) by Days (equals) Monthly
1) C 63,000,000 * 30 = C 1,890,000,000 * 2.2 = C 4,158,000,000
2) C 54,000,000 * 30 = C 1,620,000,000 * 2.2 = C 3,564,000,000
3) C 36,000,000 * 30 = C 1,080,000,000 * 2.2 = C 2,376,000,000
4) C 18,000,000 * 30 = C 540,000,000 * 2.2 = C 1,188,000,000

-------------
As I think we can all see, the numbers don’t look so fierce when its broken down. The reality is that at the very best one could make up to 25 billion in 3 months. And that's with a hell of a lot of work as well as being awake and active 24 hours a day, 7 days a week for a full universe length and being alive at the end of it.
The truth is that the average player is not superman and won’t to be doing anything like that. In my experience most people have about 6 hours to play per day, more at weekends. There are many players who have far more time on their hands, this is true, but I’m doubtful that they’ll be spending all their time on Star Sonata.
Simply put, if I spent the same about of time DGing as I would have to on this, I could make a great deal more cash, even selling it to AI, than what I’ve put up here.

Look it over, think it over. I have no real problem with a sale cap, but I think it should be closer to 1,500 or even 2,000 per tick.

And just to add, the only thing a colony timer would add here is a little more precise timing. You would still have to do all the work yourself, that is unless we are proposing that the timer do all this for you

P.S. This is probably the biggest post I've ever written. One for my personal record books.

- DW

Bravo DW bravo

and to point out admins, Churchill never has been very good at maths it seems, remember his post about the ass behe or ass behe + (forget) being 100b...

I think D-W's work deserves consideration, and having looked over it myself feel it to be accurate enough to use myself mwuwhaaha.

lol we didn't use churchill's math, he just re-iterated what had gone on in admin chat. I'll ask the other to take a look at DW's stuff, but i'm thinking 1500 would probably be a good place to start.

I've wondered why prom is so highly valued by colonies. After all, when you bulk sell a commod to a colony the price offered by the colony for the item will drop. I have never seen that happen with prom. Maybe it's coded that way because of the decay rate. Not all of us have a prom mine. Some of us must look to the ai stations as a source. I am ok with a limit. 1k does seem low. 1.5k max?

Market

Colonies actually have an amount of a commod they currently have in store. Since prom decays, they never have much when the tick comes around. Jeff was considering lowering prom decays for colonies as another fix for this.