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Post Class Rebalance Proposal: Gunner
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Gunner:

Gunner currently has a number of problems: Its bonuses to weapon damage are considered nearly insignificant, resulting in Gunner's taking weaponry that is convenient to apply the destruction debuff with over weapons that do damage. Missiles are a Gunner's primary DPS, but they do not scale in the same way that weapons do. Two gunners with the same missiles will do the same amount of DPS, regardless of their equipment or other skills. Missiles are also quite inconvenient to use.
Our plan is to make missiles take zero slots and have them expire a lot faster. Most missiles will be given more speed and thrust and missiles will be fired in volleys, the number of missiles per volley determined by the missile type.
Gunner's mining damage bonus will be turned into an appropriate amount of general weapon damage.
Gunners will also receive an item that, if equipped, significantly boosts their weapon damage as well as causing 4 additional pairs of weapons to fire at nearby targets, if available. These additional weapons are the same weapon that you are currently using and do not need to actually exist on your ship.

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Thu Aug 29, 2013 6:06 pm
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Post Re: Class Rebalance Proposal: Gunner
Fast Missiles yes!!! Also some debuff auras please?

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Thu Aug 29, 2013 7:45 pm
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Post Re: Class Rebalance Proposal: Gunner
s_m_w wrote:
Top Post

Gunner:

Gunner currently has a number of problems: Its bonuses to weapon damage are considered nearly insignificant, resulting in Gunner's taking weaponry that is convenient to apply the destruction debuff with over weapons that do damage. Missiles are a Gunner's primary DPS, but they do not scale in the same way that weapons do. Two gunners with the same missiles will do the same amount of DPS, regardless of their equipment or other skills. Missiles are also quite inconvenient to use.
Our plan is to make missiles take zero slots and have them expire a lot faster. Most missiles will be given more speed and thrust and missiles will be fired in volleys, the number of missiles per volley determined by the missile type.
Gunner's mining damage bonus will be turned into an appropriate amount of general weapon damage.
Gunners will also receive an item that, if equipped, significantly boosts their weapon damage as well as causing 4 additional pairs of weapons to fire at nearby targets, if available. These additional weapons are the same weapon that you are currently using and do not need to actually exist on your ship.


Said nobody ever.
also, when u guys say that vollies will expire a lot faster, does that mean missiles will no longer have a range that they can be fired from? (don't really want to add any numbers) for example will you still have to be 2k in distance away from a target to fire large lancers, and will missiles still have a built in radar?

Another question of mine is will the super item that clones wepeons add to electrical consumption: if i equip a advanced capital Armageddon laser, and the super item, will i be paying in electrical energy for all 4 weapons firing or just one?


Thu Aug 29, 2013 8:59 pm
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Post Re: Class Rebalance Proposal: Gunner
Great suggestion.

Finally listening to player feedback!


Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:27 pm
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Post Re: Class Rebalance Proposal: Gunner
the one wrote:
s_m_w wrote:
...Missiles are also quite inconvenient to use....


Said nobody ever.

...


I say it all the time. I hate having to mash that button.

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Thu Aug 29, 2013 10:39 pm
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Post Re: Class Rebalance Proposal: Gunner
the one wrote:
also, when u guys say that vollies will expire a lot faster, does that mean missiles will no longer have a range that they can be fired from? (don't really want to add any numbers) for example will you still have to be 2k in distance away from a target to fire large lancers, and will missiles still have a built in radar?

Another question of mine is will the super item that clones wepeons add to electrical consumption: if i equip a advanced capital Armageddon laser, and the super item, will i be paying in electrical energy for all 4 weapons firing or just one?


Since there will no longer be any limitation to the number of missiles controlled, you will not have to get up close to achieve maximum missile output. This means that most likely a lot of missiles will have their min range reduced or removed, depending on how the specific missiles work. Regarding missile radar, I was under the impression that missiles already had radars but if they are having trouble finding stealthy targets that is something we will playtest.

It has not yet been decided how the spawn control superitem will work with elec. That is something that will be finalized when we decide on the exact DPS of the effect, for example. The general intention is for it to be a massive burst of distributed DPS with middling DPE (compared to missiles which are to be good focused DPS with good DPE).

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Thu Aug 29, 2013 10:47 pm
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Post Re: Class Rebalance Proposal: Gunner
rather than giving every single missile a super radar to see everything. Could you possibly tie it in with the players radar? Or even 1 missile that sees all and causes a nanite similar yet stronger than flair

Just a poke around the corner i suppose, i like gunner and all i just dont see why a gunners missiles should be better than his own detection.


Thu Aug 29, 2013 11:26 pm
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Post Re: Class Rebalance Proposal: Gunner
lonedragon09 wrote:
rather than giving every single missile a super radar to see everything. Could you possibly tie it in with the players radar? Or even 1 missile that sees all and causes a nanite similar yet stronger than flair

Just a poke around the corner i suppose, i like gunner and all i just dont see why a gunners missiles should be better than his own detection.


One of the debuff missiles planned for Gunner will be a high-radar missile that gives its target a lot of vis. We will definitely not just give every missile an adum's radar, don't worry.

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Thu Aug 29, 2013 11:47 pm
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Post Re: Class Rebalance Proposal: Gunner
I don't think it's inconveniant, relate it to how a seer as to mash his hot keyed assassination tweak or any other tweak to get enough damage to 1hit every time he goes into a DG, it's all about principle, they don't have to use tweaks, but tweaks will make things faster; gunners don't have to use missiles but missiles make things go faster.

On Another note, will the super items effect only be shooting 2 weps if there are 2 aggro ai's attacking us, or will it shoot 4 whole weps at once at a single aggro target?


Fri Aug 30, 2013 1:45 am
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Post Re: Class Rebalance Proposal: Gunner
A Gunner without missiles in the current system is a gunner that does fuckall dps, which is a known fact by all admins and all gunners, except you apparently. I have extensively tested gunner dps without missiles, and it is fucking sad. A SHIELD MONKEY does more dps.

That being said, I love the proposed changes. When you're done, could you send someone to look at Gunner ships and why Jeff made that statement about 3 aug capships?


Fri Aug 30, 2013 5:41 am
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Post Re: Class Rebalance Proposal: Gunner
Calypso wrote:
the one wrote:
s_m_w wrote:
...Missiles are also quite inconvenient to use....


Said nobody ever.

...


I say it all the time. I hate having to mash that button.

Calypso


Please add a toggle for the automated launching of missiles! Otherwise it's just an incentive to run scripts.

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Fri Aug 30, 2013 8:05 am
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Post Re: Class Rebalance Proposal: Gunner
One problem I see with removing or changing the mining damage boost is the impact it might have on pvb and bvb. Many a failed pvb was resurrected by bringing more gunners. What do you propose to do about the pvb role that gunner currently plays after this rebalance? will bases mining vulnerability be looked at?


Fri Aug 30, 2013 3:00 pm
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Post Re: Class Rebalance Proposal: Gunner
b1gshooter wrote:
One problem I see with removing or changing the mining damage boost is the impact it might have on pvb and bvb. Many a failed pvb was resurrected by bringing more gunners. What do you propose to do about the pvb role that gunner currently plays after this rebalance? will bases mining vulnerability be looked at?


The mining damage bonus will be commuted to a bonus to ALL damage types, so they will be at least as effective with mining damage as they currently are.

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Fri Aug 30, 2013 3:02 pm
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Post Re: Class Rebalance Proposal: Gunner
yclepticon wrote:
The mining damage bonus will be commuted to a bonus to ALL damage types, so they will be at least as effective with mining damage as they currently are.


Well, that might be my bad - I guess I read that as watered down to a bonus to all damage types.

Now, let's ask ourselves if giving gunner 60% to all damage types is really doing anything to rebalance the classes.

What do you guys want gunner to be anyway?

It's the clear favorite for PvB because of mining damage - but what else is Gunner supposed to be? Spawn Control? Debuff? 60% seems like alot of damage across the board, though it wouldn't be the highest dps class assuming today's numbers stay about right.


Fri Aug 30, 2013 3:10 pm
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Post Re: Class Rebalance Proposal: Gunner
Weapon jumping and no missile limits seems to lend the class to spawn control and long range fighting becomes more viable, although it seems that this could lead to Gunners having very low weapon damage versus single targets, but gets multiplied by a factor of three when fighting a large crowd of enemies.

I wonder, though, if weapon jumping range will correlate with the range of the weapon being fired, and how missile decay will have consequences on my effective range and ability to fight Speed Demons or other fast moving targets.

I can see that multiple classes are getting class items for their ships. Is this because it's impossible to code into a skill? Otherwise, it is not a very elegant solution.

Also, I completely support the statement that missiles are inconvenient to use. I trust the devs will not listen to naysayers as they know what they're doing in relation to this, but I must reinforce the opinion that those who believe missiles are fine in their current state are in the minority, and should not be listened to.

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Fri Aug 30, 2013 3:53 pm
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