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The State of BvB in Star Sonata
http://forum.starsonata.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=61300		 Page 4 of 6
Author:  sabre198 [ Mon Nov 23, 2015 5:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The State of BvB in Star Sonata
ELITE wrote:
My apologies. None of those galaxies have been successfully BvB'd either. :)


how many have been attempted and failed?
Author:  xcrunner5 [ Mon Nov 23, 2015 8:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The State of BvB in Star Sonata
sabre198 wrote:
ELITE wrote:
My apologies. None of those galaxies have been successfully BvB'd either. :)


how many have been attempted and failed?

AFAIK none.

I agree that 5-7 kits should be enough for galaxy defense, but its laughably NOT FOR BVB.

There is all this talk about "defenders shouldn't have to be online during an attack." What difference does it make when attackers can put down double or triple the kits? Attackers/defenders should gain their superiority by using tactics and such, not for simply spamming double the amount of kits that a defender has.
Author:  DarkSteel [ Mon Nov 23, 2015 8:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The State of BvB in Star Sonata
xcrunner5 wrote:
sabre198 wrote:
ELITE wrote:
My apologies. None of those galaxies have been successfully BvB'd either. :)


how many have been attempted and failed?

AFAIK none.

I agree that 5-7 kits should be enough for galaxy defense, but its laughably NOT FOR BVB.

There is all this talk about "defenders shouldn't have to be online during an attack." What difference does it make when attackers can put down double or triple the kits? Attackers/defenders should gain their superiority by using tactics and such, not for simply spamming double the amount of kits that a defender has.


That's funny. I don't think it is particularly our fault that EF doesn't seem to even want to attempt a 5-7 kit gal. Perhaps it is because of that pathetic showing you guys had in Galactic EFraction, that resulted in this 100% turtle mode you've been pulling off this uni (which still failed)? Also, you have 24 hours to beef the gal when whoever wants to BvB you does outpost next door AND you can counter BvB instantly. I really don't get what you're all crying about. The outposts we layed were definately kill-able and you just failed to act in time (:an entire month).

5 decked out Ada kits are not PvBable and that's exactly what I think devs were aiming for. That is one character's slots for 1 galaxy which seems pretty damn reasonable to me.
Author:  xcrunner5 [ Mon Nov 23, 2015 9:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The State of BvB in Star Sonata
xcrunner5 wrote:
I agree that 5-7 kits should be enough for galaxy defense, but its laughably NOT FOR BVB.


For me this is still about the unlimited attacker slots. Yes you can kill the outpost galaxy. But the problem is still here that the only thing BvB comes down to is how many kits the attacker will put up. And IMO it needs to be limited. Its just stupid now, instead of having each side have to use tactics and strategy in order to win, its just "can the attackers get enough people with enough gear with enough slots" to steamroll over any galaxy simply by spamming kits
Author:  DarkSteel [ Mon Nov 23, 2015 9:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The State of BvB in Star Sonata
Then come with a suggestion on how you want that to work. A HPS kit does significantly more HPS than a DPS kit can do DPS so a 1:1 StM ratio wouldn't work, ever. A hardcap is also a bad idea which has been explained by Lemon. If you have a better system please do tell.
Author:  xcrunner5 [ Mon Nov 23, 2015 9:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The State of BvB in Star Sonata
Attackers get +3-5(at the most) kits. That way galaxies with less kits are still weak, but if you put more kits up you should be safe. I'd argue for 3 since that way the attacker looses most of the advantage by the time 1 account is nearly fully utilized for defense.

However, until the new OLs and such, and maybe SM21/22 are seen, I think its foolish to argue over the exact limits, other than that a limit needs to be in place.
Author:  DarkSteel [ Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The State of BvB in Star Sonata
xcrunner5 wrote:
Attackers get +3-5(at the most) kits. That way galaxies with less kits are still weak, but if you put more kits up you should be safe. I'd argue for 3 since that way the attacker looses most of the advantage by the time 1 account is nearly fully utilized for defense.

However, until the new OLs and such, and maybe SM21/22 are seen, I think its foolish to argue over the exact limits, other than that a limit needs to be in place.


So instead of 4 HPS kits you'd lay about 7 or 8 and it wouldn't be doable for the attacking party. That's a whole different number than the 20 - 30 Blizz was talking about. Do you even know the numbers Shadow? :P
Author:  xcrunner5 [ Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The State of BvB in Star Sonata
heylo wrote:
xcrunner5 wrote:
Attackers get +3-5(at the most) kits. That way galaxies with less kits are still weak, but if you put more kits up you should be safe. I'd argue for 3 since that way the attacker looses most of the advantage by the time 1 account is nearly fully utilized for defense.

However, until the new OLs and such, and maybe SM21/22 are seen, I think its foolish to argue over the exact limits, other than that a limit needs to be in place.


So instead of 4 HPS kits you'd lay about 7 or 8 and it wouldn't be doable for the attacking party. That's a whole different number than the 20 - 30 Blizz was talking about. Do you even know the numbers Shadow? :P

Yeah, because 20-30 kits is ridiculous. Back to the original point - it shouldn't require that many kits to defend a galaxy.

And for all I know, those numbers were pulled out of thin air.

What I do know is what happened during the BvBs, and being able to have 30 v 15 and no chance for defenders is not good design.
Author:  DarkSteel [ Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The State of BvB in Star Sonata
I honestly don't think we can use this EF vs Traders+RF war as an example at all. Any rational leadership would've surrendered a long time ago. You guys just keep going because Thermal has some personal vendetta and refuses to go down without showing that the all-mighty Eminence Front can hold its own, lol. This system has worked perfectly fine for every other war that's been going on.

As for numbers, I'm using the ones we push out of our setups with DPS and HPS kits.
Author:  xcrunner5 [ Mon Nov 23, 2015 11:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The State of BvB in Star Sonata
What other war since the base revamp has been on the scale of 20+ attacking BvB kits? its the only one able to be used for this discussion...

Surrendering doesn't even play a part in this discussion. I'm trying to address what I see is wrong with the current system, nothing of which is related to what-if scenarios on how to avoid the problem that needs to be fixed. The problems don't go away because you choose to ignore them.
Author:  ELITE [ Mon Nov 23, 2015 1:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The State of BvB in Star Sonata
And the war doesn't go away because you choose to ignore it :).

I think the current system is fine. As with most of SS, you win by throwing more money at the problem than the enemy.

If you don't want to see 15 ada kit galaxies dying to 30 ada kits, maybe you shouldn't piss off someone who holds 30 ada kits ready to BvB with.
Author:  DarkSteel [ Mon Nov 23, 2015 5:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The State of BvB in Star Sonata
OK so here's the thing.

- Before the base rebalance we had the issue of playerships being very very strong compared to bases. This resulted in the end game being too scared to PvP because of how easy it was for a squad of end-game characters to wipe entire systems without too much trouble.

- Now PvB can only be done up to a certain point after which BvB is required. Putting ANY cap on BvB kits would make the defending team have a certain point at which they become un-BvBable and this means a team can simply turtle in a couple of un-BvBable galaxies and never be at risk of even being looked at. Much like EF is attempting this uni, except since there is no hardcap on BvB kits you can never be 100% safe.

So we go from a too aggresive and low cost style of war pre-rebalance to a turtle all day style post-rebalance and that would make it impossible to win any end game wars if there was any kind of cap on BvB kits.
Author:  lrellok [ Fri Nov 27, 2015 1:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The State of BvB in Star Sonata
" We already had in the works a change so that, starting next universe, bases will no longer be able to equip or use any gear that isn’t specifically for bases. "

Will this include items like "Space Rat Hatchery" that is not tagged as a base item but is useful only on bases? Cause that would just be cruel.
Author:  andezrhode2a [ Fri Nov 27, 2015 2:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The State of BvB in Star Sonata
Space Rat Hatchery is a base factory, so that shouldn't be affected. The items they refer to are items which are intended to be used on player ships only and are balanced thereafter. Good examples of this are the Golagoay Vazaha Monkey Overloader and Last Defense tweaks.
Author:  Antilzah [ Fri Nov 27, 2015 8:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The State of BvB in Star Sonata
What about non-base augs?
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