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Post Re: new universe generation feature: Resource Explosion Pass
anilv wrote:
I've already said I'm open to spreading the wealth a bit in the center next uni.

Lol

anilv wrote:
My main position in this thread has been to call people on inconsistencies, such as building to a very expensive standard and then complaining about ROI, or misinterpreting the mechanics and purpose of the Resource Explosion Pass.

Wasn't it more about the fact that we can't run a prod ... Because there were no T0's? And that because of that, we are obliged to do shitty AFK colo whoring, to get the ROI? I think you are misinterpreting the whole complaint about the ROI.

anilv wrote:
Sure, with enough testing we could have possibly noticed that getting rid of empty- and near-empty gals would cause the uni's resources to be spread more thinly. Apparently no one on the dev team was familiar enough with the uni generation code to think of this issue when I originally proposed that we add more planets. To me, this kind of thing is very hard to test in the sense that you kind of have to know what you're looking for in order to find it. The kind of testing we did was to generate a uni with the new shape and DF dropoff, and check a few random samples of galaxies to make sure everything looked all right. We had no reason to believe there would be a change in resource density, and frankly it's been so long since any endgame player built in low DF we didn't even know what to expect there.

Apparently, from what goofy said, he built previous uni's in low DF galaxies, and the ressources this uni are shit compared to before. I think your problem is the lack of testing and the lack of communication.

If you don't know what to expect, what about you build in 2-3 galaxies or scan in a big radius to see if an end game team will be able to build something there. But no, now Traders can farm easy credits and have nice prods, while the rest needs to be satisfied with shit T0 ressources.

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Wed Sep 28, 2016 7:12 am
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Post Re: new universe generation feature: Resource Explosion Pass
anilv wrote:
My main position in this thread has been to call people on inconsistencies, such as building to a very expensive standard and then complaining about ROI,


wah.. my gal got killed because the galaxy wasnt good enough to support an expensive defense, iquit. its a circular argument?

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Post Re: new universe generation feature: Resource Explosion Pass
sabre198 wrote:
anilv wrote:
My main position in this thread has been to call people on inconsistencies, such as building to a very expensive standard and then complaining about ROI,


wah.. my gal got killed because the galaxy wasnt good enough to support an expensive defense, iquit. its a circular argument?


Right, if the gal isn't good enough to support expensive defense, it shouldn't be a big deal if it does get killed. But short defending against a multiple Ada kit BvB, it's perfectly easy to build a strong defense on the cheap.

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Wed Sep 28, 2016 10:37 am
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Post Re: new universe generation feature: Resource Explosion Pass
What does high STM defense has to do with extracting Tier 0 resources?

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Wed Sep 28, 2016 11:08 am
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Post Re: new universe generation feature: Resource Explosion Pass
Something like because they don't have any they are relieved of having the burden of having something to lose?

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Post Re: new universe generation feature: Resource Explosion Pass
sabre198 wrote:
Something like because they don't have any they are relieved of having the burden of having something to lose?


This. The value you invest in defense should reflect the expected return on that investment. The more lucrative the investment, the more you should be prepared to pay for it.

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Wed Sep 28, 2016 1:24 pm
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Post Re: new universe generation feature: Resource Explosion Pass
So what does that have to do with the fact that we're still having shit galaxies?


Wed Sep 28, 2016 2:21 pm
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Post Re: new universe generation feature: Resource Explosion Pass
anilv wrote:
I've already said I'm open to spreading the wealth a bit in the center next uni. My main position in this thread has been to call people on inconsistencies, such as building to a very expensive standard and then complaining about ROI, or misinterpreting the mechanics and purpose of the Resource Explosion Pass.

Sure, with enough testing we could have possibly noticed that getting rid of empty- and near-empty gals would cause the uni's resources to be spread more thinly. Apparently no one on the dev team was familiar enough with the uni generation code to think of this issue when I originally proposed that we add more planets. To me, this kind of thing is very hard to test in the sense that you kind of have to know what you're looking for in order to find it. The kind of testing we did was to generate a uni with the new shape and DF dropoff, and check a few random samples of galaxies to make sure everything looked all right. We had no reason to believe there would be a change in resource density, and frankly it's been so long since any endgame player built in low DF we didn't even know what to expect there.


You should at very least make it so that the highest df galaxies aren't right next to each other. And maybe make them account for 5-10% of wild space.

I don't personally think traders is cheating. But you do have to realize how bad it looks to others when like a third of the dev team is traders, and changes keep making it in that almost exclusively benefit traders.

I think you guys need to make, "how will this change affect others" a more important focus than, "how cool would it be if I could do this"

As you've established the planet boost massively increased planet numbers and spread load all those commods, with as I understand it, only highest df galaxies not taking a massive hit too usability. You've already stated it was an unintended byproduct, so can we drop the relative investment argument and look at the problems presented and how to fix them?

PROBLEM 1; with more planets the nodes are spread across more planets requiring, as RE said, many more base slots to get the same result as last uni. This was unintended, so let's fox it.

SOLUTION; seems simple enough, lower the number of planets this uni to what it was last uni, which should give commods the old density per planet that last uni carried. Alternatively, you could just increase commodity density so that more people build in a gal with each other with the same amount of planets, but higher density, which would actually mesh really well with your investment argument because it would spread load the investment. This one kind of seems like playing with fire though.

PROBLEM 2; node quality seems to have shifted massively toward high df, and allowing one team to easily take all of that is dumb. As is forcing teams to fight over serviceable galaxies (they won't fight, they'll just leave, we both know this).

SOLUTION; start by making numerous islands of high df galaxies far away from each other so one team cannot claim it all. Also push the top df galaxy count to at least 10% of wild space, doing less than that was kind of dumb as in most all MMOs the end game populace vastly outnumbers the developing populace. So there needs to be much more suitable space for endgamers, whoever thought that 5 top df galaxies was a good idea was clearly not thoroughly examining the choice. Then maybe if you can find a way to bring back last universe's node quality in lower df all should be fixed, but that might be handled just by pushing planet counts to last universe's quantity.


At the end of the day though, you've admitted a mistake was made, so can we please all stop arguing and look at ways to fix it, rather than just screaming, "Don't use Ada kits!", or "Traders is getting trillions, rage rage rage!", because 8 pages later that shit still isn't helpful.


Last edited by ShawnMcCall on Wed Sep 28, 2016 3:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Wed Sep 28, 2016 3:47 pm
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Post Re: new universe generation feature: Resource Explosion Pass
ShawnMcCall wrote:
I don't personally think traders is cheating. But you do have to realize how bad it looks to others when like a third of the dev team is traders, and changes keep making it in that almost exclusively benefit traders.

I think you guys need to make, "how will this change affect others" a more important focus than, "how cool would it be if u could do this"


Except there was no reason to expect when coding the change last uni that Traders would be the only team to get high DF galaxies. We made smart choices during reset, but we only acted on the same public information that everyone else had.

ShawnMcCall wrote:
lower the number of planets this uni to what it was last uni, which should give commods the old density per planet that last uni carried.


It's not possible to delete planets wholesale from the current uni. We will just have to deal with it and code a rebalance to take effect NEXT uni.

ShawnMcCall wrote:
node quality seems to have shifted massively toward high df


There is no such shift as far as I know, beyond the usual increase in T0 abundance by DF.

ShawnMcCall wrote:
start by making numerous islands of high df galaxies far away from each other so one team cannot claim it all. Also push the top df galaxy count to at least 10% of wild space, doing less than that was kind of dumb as in most all MMOs the end game populace vastly outnumbers the developing populace. So there needs to be much more suitable space for endgamers, whoever thought that 5 top df galaxies was a good idea was clearly not thoroughly examining the choice. Then maybe if you can find a way to being back last universe's node quality in lower df all should be fixed, but that might be handled just by letting planet counts to last universe's quantity.


This seems cool and all, but again it'd be changes for NEXT uni, not this one.

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Wed Sep 28, 2016 3:52 pm
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Post Re: new universe generation feature: Resource Explosion Pass
I know it'll be next uni. I am not interested in the people raging about the current universe, long term fixes are what interest me. Which is why Jey's explosion thing just needs to be trashed, and those nodes need to go into normal universe generation for next uni so that it's not just benefiting 1 or 2 teams.

Yes you acted on the same public info, however as the strongest team in the game, making a change that the strongest team can fully exploit is at best ill advised, and at worst really really dumb.

As for now quality, people are saying it's gone down so it probably has, somehow I doubt a player base wide conspiracy to get the universe commods improved. But that might just be fixed by lowering the planet count. Maybe lower the planet count, and generate a universe on test to see if it solves everything?

Other than that though, you have to realize that this change had been disastrous. I have already had 2 friends quit, both have said they will have a look back next uni, and both cited the lack of serviceable galaxies as primary reasons for departure.


Wed Sep 28, 2016 4:04 pm
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Post Re: new universe generation feature: Resource Explosion Pass
ShawnMcCall wrote:
I know it'll be next uni. I am not interested in the people raging about the current universe, long term fixes are what interest me. Which is why Jey's explosion thing just needs to be trashed, and those nodes need to go into normal universe generation for next uni so that it's not just benefiting 1 or 2 teams.


the explosion is part of the uni generation. It was only applied mid uni this time because obviously i couldnt just rollback to the reset date to apply it then xD.

Its pretty much impossible for it to benefit only 1-2 team, theres a minimum distance between explosions and theres 10 on wildspace / 5 in earthforce. that ensure they get spread around the whole uni. Now if 2 teams cover 75% of the buildable territory then yes, i guess it would benefit only 1-2 team, but any changes would have the same problem :P.

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Wed Sep 28, 2016 4:14 pm
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Post Re: new universe generation feature: Resource Explosion Pass
ShawnMcCall wrote:
I know it'll be next uni. I am not interested in the people raging about the current universe, long term fixes are what interest me. Which is why Jey's explosion thing just needs to be trashed, and those nodes need to go into normal universe generation for next uni so that it's not just benefiting 1 or 2 teams.

Yes you acted on the same public info, however as the strongest team in the game, making a change that the strongest team can fully exploit is at best ill advised, and at worst really really dumb.

As for now quality, people are saying it's gone down so it probably has, somehow I doubt a player base wide conspiracy to get the universe commods improved. But that might just be fixed by lowering the planet count. Maybe lower the planet count, and generate a universe on test to see if it solves everything?

Other than that though, you have to realize that this change had been disastrous. I have already had 2 friends quit, both have said they will have a look back next uni, and both cited the lack of serviceable galaxies as primary reasons for departure.


In that case, thanks for the ideas. We are in the meeting right now and looking at exact numbers to measure the resource abundance drop-off.

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Wed Sep 28, 2016 4:21 pm
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Post Re: new universe generation feature: Resource Explosion Pass
I'll just say once more that, when the Emperor zone is in the middle of wildspace, it'll be impossible for 1 or even 2 teams to grab all the DF 250+s.

Attachment:
Emperor zone v1.png


The DF300s will be on the outside of the edge of this cluster.


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Wed Sep 28, 2016 4:40 pm
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Post Re: new universe generation feature: Resource Explosion Pass
And what testing will be done regarding the layer resource generator and this even newer untested shape this time?

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Post Re: new universe generation feature: Resource Explosion Pass
sabre198 wrote:
And what testing will be done regarding the layer resource generator and this even newer untested shape this time?


We'll generate several new unis and use the dev tools we're currently creating to measure the resource drop-off.

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