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Post Changes to the Industrial Commodity System and a change QoL
Discussion topic for post: http://www.starsonata.com/announcements ... ol-to-bvb/


Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:41 am
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Post Re: Changes to the Industrial Commodity System and a change
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To counteract this we’ll be implementing a warning shout in a defending team’s Team chat when a BvB station gets deployed in one of their galaxies.


I'd make this wait at least 10 minutes since bases aren't immediately functional...

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Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:01 am
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Post Re: Changes to the Industrial Commodity System and a change
Masterful wrote:
Quote:
To counteract this we’ll be implementing a warning shout in a defending team’s Team chat when a BvB station gets deployed in one of their galaxies.


I'd make this wait at least 10 minutes since bases aren't immediately functional...


Agreed. Otherwise it will just be another pointless change to benefit a few carebear types, like the warning shout for bases/drones being tractored.

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Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:18 am
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Post Re: Changes to the Industrial Commodity System and a change
Masterful wrote:
Quote:
To counteract this we’ll be implementing a warning shout in a defending team’s Team chat when a BvB station gets deployed in one of their galaxies.


I'd make this wait at least 10 minutes since bases aren't immediately functional...


That seems totally reasonable. I support it.

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Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:44 am
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Post Re: Changes to the Industrial Commodity System and a change
Dark Steel wrote:
We’ll be introducing the ability for teams to lay Small Warp Beacons into owned galaxies as long as your team is eligible to BvB that galaxy. There’s two reasons to this. First of all the only reliable way to get 10.000 range (hardcap on permanent assets) away from enemy assets is by using a Singularity Brake (or the likes) on your (usually engineless) ship. However, when you warp into the galaxy you’re (of course) shot by the enemy assets, which will likely kill you instantly. The only way to then get out of range is to ‘beat’ the server’s response time (ping) when you get back in. So your ship goes yellow, you enter and instantly hit your Singularity Brake hotkey, and if you ‘beat’ the server ping, the warp goes off. If you didn’t ‘beat’ the server ping you’ll be shot by enemy assets again and die. Now, for people that live in or near United States (where the servers are located), you can ‘beat’ the server ping fairly reliably. However, for people across the world this is not the case which makes getting out of range to even engage in BvB extremely tedious if not impossible.

Secondly, we’ve had talks about teams being too scared to recruit new members in fear of them being spies and laying Small Warp Beacons to warp enemy ships in with. We’re hoping this change will reduce this fear.

Lastly, some have mentioned that this change cuts off any chance of keeping the assaulting team from even laying stations even if they do find them trying to get out of range. To counteract this we’ll be implementing a warning shout in a defending team’s Team chat when a BvB station gets deployed in one of their galaxies.

Discuss in the Forum


Some questions here. Is the team leaving tactic still in-game and permissible or was this done as a replacement for that?

If the team leaving tactic, which is a rule circumvention tactic solely designed to nullify the entire in-game war mechanic concept, is still allowed but now with the beacon mechanic, then it sounds like you just made team leaving even more abusive. Instead of multiple members now needing to "burden themselves" with jumping off the team, then jumping back on, only 1 member now has to do that now, and can then lay the beacon for everyone else?

Also why is the example continually used of a single person trying to BvB while on a laggy internet connection? Seems odd BvB is all being balanced around one person trying to solo or MC a BvB.


Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:46 am
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Post Re: Changes to the Industrial Commodity System and a change
dreadlordnaf wrote:
Dark Steel wrote:
We’ll be introducing the ability for teams to lay Small Warp Beacons into owned galaxies as long as your team is eligible to BvB that galaxy. There’s two reasons to this. First of all the only reliable way to get 10.000 range (hardcap on permanent assets) away from enemy assets is by using a Singularity Brake (or the likes) on your (usually engineless) ship. However, when you warp into the galaxy you’re (of course) shot by the enemy assets, which will likely kill you instantly. The only way to then get out of range is to ‘beat’ the server’s response time (ping) when you get back in. So your ship goes yellow, you enter and instantly hit your Singularity Brake hotkey, and if you ‘beat’ the server ping, the warp goes off. If you didn’t ‘beat’ the server ping you’ll be shot by enemy assets again and die. Now, for people that live in or near United States (where the servers are located), you can ‘beat’ the server ping fairly reliably. However, for people across the world this is not the case which makes getting out of range to even engage in BvB extremely tedious if not impossible.

Secondly, we’ve had talks about teams being too scared to recruit new members in fear of them being spies and laying Small Warp Beacons to warp enemy ships in with. We’re hoping this change will reduce this fear.

Lastly, some have mentioned that this change cuts off any chance of keeping the assaulting team from even laying stations even if they do find them trying to get out of range. To counteract this we’ll be implementing a warning shout in a defending team’s Team chat when a BvB station gets deployed in one of their galaxies.

Discuss in the Forum


Some questions here. Is the team leaving tactic still in-game and permissible or was this done as a replacement for that?

If the team leaving tactic, which is a rule circumvention tactic solely designed to nullify the entire in-game war mechanic concept, is still allowed but now with the beacon mechanic, then it sounds like you just made team leaving even more abusive. Instead of multiple members now needing to "burden themselves" with jumping off the team, then jumping back on, only 1 member now has to do that now, and can then lay the beacon for everyone else?

Also why is the example continually used of a single person trying to BvB while on a laggy internet connection? Seems odd BvB is all being balanced around one person trying to solo or MC a BvB.


I've never had a problem getting around in any gal with a stealthy ship. You really don't need to leave your team in order to get out of range with a small warp beacon.

BvB isn't at all being balanced around 'one person with a laggy connection'. This has been a problem for years on end and it doesn't really matter where in the world you live. If it's not in America you're going to have a hard time beating the server ping.

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Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:49 am
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Post Re: Changes to the Industrial Commodity System and a change
DarkSteel wrote:
dreadlordnaf wrote:
Dark Steel wrote:
We’ll be introducing the ability for teams to lay Small Warp Beacons into owned galaxies as long as your team is eligible to BvB that galaxy. There’s two reasons to this. First of all the only reliable way to get 10.000 range (hardcap on permanent assets) away from enemy assets is by using a Singularity Brake (or the likes) on your (usually engineless) ship. However, when you warp into the galaxy you’re (of course) shot by the enemy assets, which will likely kill you instantly. The only way to then get out of range is to ‘beat’ the server’s response time (ping) when you get back in. So your ship goes yellow, you enter and instantly hit your Singularity Brake hotkey, and if you ‘beat’ the server ping, the warp goes off. If you didn’t ‘beat’ the server ping you’ll be shot by enemy assets again and die. Now, for people that live in or near United States (where the servers are located), you can ‘beat’ the server ping fairly reliably. However, for people across the world this is not the case which makes getting out of range to even engage in BvB extremely tedious if not impossible.

Secondly, we’ve had talks about teams being too scared to recruit new members in fear of them being spies and laying Small Warp Beacons to warp enemy ships in with. We’re hoping this change will reduce this fear.

Lastly, some have mentioned that this change cuts off any chance of keeping the assaulting team from even laying stations even if they do find them trying to get out of range. To counteract this we’ll be implementing a warning shout in a defending team’s Team chat when a BvB station gets deployed in one of their galaxies.

Discuss in the Forum


Some questions here. Is the team leaving tactic still in-game and permissible or was this done as a replacement for that?

If the team leaving tactic, which is a rule circumvention tactic solely designed to nullify the entire in-game war mechanic concept, is still allowed but now with the beacon mechanic, then it sounds like you just made team leaving even more abusive. Instead of multiple members now needing to "burden themselves" with jumping off the team, then jumping back on, only 1 member now has to do that now, and can then lay the beacon for everyone else?

Also why is the example continually used of a single person trying to BvB while on a laggy internet connection? Seems odd BvB is all being balanced around one person trying to solo or MC a BvB.


I've never had a problem getting around in any gal with a stealthy ship. You really don't need to leave your team in order to get out of range with a small warp beacon.

BvB isn't at all being balanced around 'one person with a laggy connection'. This has been a problem for years on end and it doesn't really matter where in the world you live. If it's not in America you're going to have a hard time beating the server ping.


Ok, but that wasnt my question regarding team leaving. It's great that you yourself no longer need to rely on the team leaving tactic anymore to BvB, and sounds like you just made a good case why technical limits on team leaving can now be put into place (like being prevented from joining a team while in the gal of a /war'd team), since it is doable as you mention, and reasonable in my opinion, to expect someone who wants to bvb to invest in a good stealth ship that can carry a beacon.

But it sounds like that isnt being planned though? So the net result is that someone using the "honor" system, like yourself, no longer needs to team leave on setup BvB. But the people that dont care about the honor system just got their favored abusive rule-circumvention mechanic made even easier for them.....

BTW Im not unsympathetic to people with slow internet connections. That was me for most my life and the reason (even in SS) and why I gravitated toward pet/slave classes since the server side based slaves wouldnt suffer as much from the lag. That said there are a lot of "real-life" inconveniences for people playing MMOs. In SS for example being Stateside means you got a fast connection to the server, the flip side is you are working or sleeping during prime gaming hours in Europe and open to easy attack for all your systems. Vice versa, being in Europe you have a slower connection to server, but less competition for ubers during prime gaming hours, and less enemies in SS who are awake and online when you are. <-- this is a real tangible benefit that helps in the game. So both have real pros and cons.

It seems a very slippery slope to start saying that certain real life inconveniences that affect people from fully enjoying the game to the max are more important than others, and basing rule sets on that.


Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:18 am
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Post Re: Changes to the Industrial Commodity System and a change
Masterful wrote:
Quote:
To counteract this we’ll be implementing a warning shout in a defending team’s Team chat when a BvB station gets deployed in one of their galaxies.


I'd make this wait at least 10 minutes since bases aren't immediately functional...


Or it make the alert distance based, when the station comes within a certain distance of the defenders kits. 10 mins is enough time to tractor your pulse kit almost adjacent to the defenders. With a distance based alert, that could be modified, or affected by the most powerful radar in the system, there is an incentive to make sure the defender has kits augged for "better alerts", and an incentive for the attacker to invest in good tractor ships and squad support for tractor ships.


Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:25 am
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Post Re: Changes to the Industrial Commodity System and a change
Good point that leaving team could still be considered useful, so we might still look into some code changes to penalize that behavior. However, it's much lower priority than before since there is a pretty straightforward way to accomplish BvB now without it (stealth ship => small warp beacon).

I don't know why you are getting all caught up in this business about US vs EU. It's just a simple matter of making this critical endgame content available to all players. It does not represent some vast plot to simplify other game aspects on account of varying ping times.

I would be fine making the alert go live when the defenders' bases engage the attacking bases, as opposed to when BvB kits are first deployed or first active. I don't want it to be a hidden distance modification since we are trying to get away from hidden mechanics.

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Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:34 am
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Post Re: Changes to the Industrial Commodity System and a change
anilv wrote:
Good point that leaving team could still be considered useful, so we might still look into some code changes to penalize that behavior. However, it's much lower priority than before since there is a pretty straightforward way to accomplish BvB now without it (stealth ship => small warp beacon).

I don't know why you are getting all caught up in this business about US vs EU. It's just a simple matter of making this critical endgame content available to all players. It does not represent some vast plot to simplify other game aspects on account of varying ping times.

I would be fine making the alert go live when the defenders' bases engage the attacking bases, as opposed to when BvB kits are first deployed or first active. I don't want it to be a hidden distance modification since we are trying to get away from hidden mechanics.


I think they're on about something else, and that is off team healers that don't catch aggro in PvB. So, even when the squad wipes, it's not over. The healers never catch aggro so they just start again when they heal everyone up. Honestly, that's a bigger problem to fix than this. This is a joke compared to that.


Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:48 am
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Post Re: Changes to the Industrial Commodity System and a change
anilv wrote:
Good point that leaving team could still be considered useful, so we might still look into some code changes to penalize that behavior. However, it's much lower priority than before since there is a pretty straightforward way to accomplish BvB now without it (stealth ship => small warp beacon).


That would be great, thanks. Seems like a simple timer to rejoin or the inability to join a team while in a /war'd system would do the trick. And you should realize by now, it doesn't matter if an easy alternative exists, if there is another method that exists and adds even the slightest advantage and is not technically prohibited, people will use and abuse it to the extrme.

anilv wrote:
I don't know why you are getting all caught up in this business about US vs EU. It's just a simple matter of making this critical endgame content available to all players. It does not represent some vast plot to simplify other game aspects on account of varying ping times.


That wasnt my point, so I'll just blame myself for making it not clear. There is a lot of "critical endgame content" as you call it that myself and many other people can't hardly participate in due to real life reasons, which seems to be a strong concern of yours. I'm not attacking you, but your concern on this seems a bit tilted. Simply having a job or family pretty much makes it impossible to do runs in this game or participate in a real BvB attack given how long they take in terms of needed continuous un-interrupted gameplay time. Im not arguing though to make these runs easier or to make BvB more convenient to a subset of the population like me. Im arguing that if we now extend game development balance to include factors like someone's real life situation, then either treat everyone equally, or do not include such factors into the development process at all.

anilv wrote:
I would be fine making the alert go live when the defenders' bases engage the attacking bases, as opposed to when BvB kits are first deployed or first active. I don't want it to be a hidden distance modification since we are trying to get away from hidden mechanics.


Ive always thought that was how it should be. Sounds good.


Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:51 am
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Post Re: Changes to the Industrial Commodity System and a change
ShawnMcCall wrote:
anilv wrote:
Good point that leaving team could still be considered useful, so we might still look into some code changes to penalize that behavior. However, it's much lower priority than before since there is a pretty straightforward way to accomplish BvB now without it (stealth ship => small warp beacon).

I don't know why you are getting all caught up in this business about US vs EU. It's just a simple matter of making this critical endgame content available to all players. It does not represent some vast plot to simplify other game aspects on account of varying ping times.

I would be fine making the alert go live when the defenders' bases engage the attacking bases, as opposed to when BvB kits are first deployed or first active. I don't want it to be a hidden distance modification since we are trying to get away from hidden mechanics.


I think they're on about something else, and that is off team healers that don't catch aggro in PvB. So, even when the squad wipes, it's not over. The healers never catch aggro so they just start again when they heal everyone up. Honestly, that's a bigger problem to fix than this. This is a joke compared to that.


Sigh yes, this too. In most games if someone "not-flagged" for pvp helps someone who is, like healing them, they inherit the full aggro or pvp flag.


Mon Jul 24, 2017 10:07 am
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Post Re: Changes to the Industrial Commodity System and a change
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In addition to these changes you will nolonger be able to sell off-theme commods to AI bases. So a Fusion cell base will only deal in Fusion Cells and its respective T1/2/3 commodity and nolonger deal in Steel Girders, Sentient Chatbots, Paxian Figurines, Fine Space Whisky, Sub-shield Buffers or Cyborg Brigade. We are also reducing the total output of the IC system by 20% as it was yielding more than intended.

I really don't like this change. It's hard enough to get bases and this will make it where you have to find 7 different base types to sell everything. It only makes the system even more complicated.
If you don't want as openness as it has now then you should make the nontype bases buy 50% as many of the "off commods" so that people can still sell them. The system of having all basic commods is good and you don't need to change that. :)


Mon Jul 24, 2017 11:12 am
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Post Re: Changes to the Industrial Commodity System and a change
Joshua102 wrote:
Quote:
In addition to these changes you will nolonger be able to sell off-theme commods to AI bases. So a Fusion cell base will only deal in Fusion Cells and its respective T1/2/3 commodity and nolonger deal in Steel Girders, Sentient Chatbots, Paxian Figurines, Fine Space Whisky, Sub-shield Buffers or Cyborg Brigade. We are also reducing the total output of the IC system by 20% as it was yielding more than intended.

I really don't like this change. It's hard enough to get bases and this will make it where you have to find 7 different base types to sell everything. It only makes the system even more complicated.
If you don't want as openness as it has now then you should make the nontype bases buy 50% as many of the "off commods" so that people can still sell them. The system of having all basic commods is good and you don't need to change that. :)


Strongly agreed! Doesn't this counteract the increased buy rate that you guys want to implement? You basically just divided the number of potential ai bases we could sell to by a factor of 7. Just finding enough stations to sell to last universe was borderline impossible. I don't even want to think of what it would be like now.

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Mon Jul 24, 2017 3:33 pm
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Post Re: Changes to the Industrial Commodity System and a change
The max amount a station will buy got increased by up to 5 times so finding places to sell your things at shouldn't ever be a problem. The old system was completely front loaded. Whoever came first got to fill up the station and reap the profits, so we're taking that out.

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Mon Jul 24, 2017 3:37 pm
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