*ferrat, Tomtem, and Arrow dislike team level*

*all other playerbase likes it*

*cough*

hmm i did not read it all but by the wya jeffl explained it i would just make a team owned by my loest level alt and thus no one uber could attack me then we would have alot of people made at jeffl for makeing this so just something to think about

ps: it would be really broken casue then any pesaon could attack any level base no matter the level a level 1500 could attack a level 20 base

Well, my suggestion is to have the team level based on the mean of the top 5 leveled players on the team. (hope you all know what mean/average is.)

Where on earth to you get that idea from.......

The current system allows people like you who I belive is lvl 700+ to have lvl 150 alts owning mean bases unkillable by any lvl 150 player.

BUMP!! BURP!! BEEP!!

Signed...

Make PvP fair again, take the advantage away from those who exploit the PvP system to kill others. PvP needs to be open to be fair, and with Team based PvP, it would be.

The major problem seems to be the conflict between low level alt base making, mid level alts in tec 20 ships (although this has expanded into mid level elite teams in tec 20 vrs the plebs) and genuine newbies ~

The team based score wouldn't work. In the (brief) time of Phoenix, both times I trained people up aggressively - typically spending 500+mil / player from their mid 20's onwards and upwards. If the team pvp range was set at mine, then anything they built could be wiped out easily, and they'd be sitting ducks (even with good gear). I get Phoenix destroyed on my own with my big mouth, but can still give them some measure of immunity to it.

The problem arises when everyone's low level alt bases suddenly get to attack all the genuine low levels since they're in each other's pvp range. I disbanded both times mainly 'cause the low levels are suddenly wide open to repeated destruction and choke-pointing - not 'cause I was personally that concerned about choke points (an advantage of warp 4, often over-looked) but I was worried that my members would cease to be able to level, skill train & otherwise enjoy the game. The level 300+ are semi ok, but not those lower than that struggling along as it is.

I'll repeat - that's the real problem with low level base alts. Uber players can get annoyed by not being able to attack bases, but in the long run its not too harmful for their careers (and up to this uni could indeed build "uber" low level alts in tec 20 ships). Its crippling for first timers.

So, in effect, there's two major problems: ubers can't attack low level healers (effectively making bases useless, as there's no marking, so if you can't kill the healers, you've lost that base) and the uber's alts to avoid this only really target members of teams who are actually low level!

Crazy!


Suggestions:

1) PvB. Attacking. Unless you can set a flag for *person who healed damage given out = hostile* then its a bit of a problem. Likewise, level range still exists... leading to the crazy situation we're in at the moment where bases in systems are targeted & the rest of the system sits around doing nothing... even if its a protected system!

Solution: make an aggressive act in a system temporarily widen your pvp range by a factor x the warp level. e.g. lower in warp 0, higher in warp 2. (which has expanded ranges anyhow). This would act like the AI hostility mechanics, as in the more damage you did (or healed) the wider and wider the range becomes. This would also prevent only one person tanking a base at a time, as unless the other combat types did more damage than the healers, the healers would get targeted before them. Also modify the base AI to target the weakest target (shield wise etc) first every so often. Drones currently get instantly target switched (which is another exploit few have worked out how to use... costs a bit in crappy drones, but you won't get shot) players targeting should be on the amount of damage / healed damage done, to prevent people sitting there just happily tanking. The uber AI have this, give it to players!

2) PvB Defending / being targeted. As the problem is the level range of the low level alts, in conjunction to the above (to sort out hostile people), the level range of a base for purposes of war, attacking unprovoked should be set at the highest char's level. e.g. Team A declares war on Team B. Team B player (level 160) innocently enters a uber pimped out achilles base system where the alt is level 162. Current system - bases open fire, wiping out the low level. New system - bases act as the highest level char (level 1000+) and do not open fire, unless fired upon.

Problem - entire alt accounts. Well... this is a possibility, but for now an unlikely one.

3) PvP - Aggressor. You should have no limits at all on this, ideally. Lower levels should be able to attack anyone higher than them. Currently, we have the level ranges.

Problem - the "trick into shooting" exploit.

Solution - players have to make a trip to a base and gain a skill (something like Space Combat training) that opens this up. E.g. each level of this 3 point cost opens up a further 50-100 levels above you to pvp. This prevents innocent newbies from shooting higher levels, whilst those in the know can make killer alts to target higher levels. (I "pwned" you at level 60, you N00B!). Maybe have one point available if you follow all the volcom / cadet missions, the rest in the Rumbles to prevent non-pvp types irritating the hell out of higher levels with suicidal runs.

Problem - the tec 20 ship gap. Currently this has just been fixed, but there's a lot out there. And it really does make the game totally unfair to newbies, unless they join a major team. One of the largest reasons there's so little team variance is that to get "uber" and to get any chance of a tec 20 ship, you join one of the big teams. You can then grief the hell out of non-uber team players. Point in case - my last "war" Phoenix team members PvP knocked the hell out of certain Mercs, but they had tec 20 ships with zeus augs etc. There's only so much that skill can do for you here.

Solution: enforce a no undocking policy until level 500. Tough luck, but the game has to be equal across the board in some cases. I'd lower the range to level 425 instead of 500, to allow players to get one on their own. I think I was about level 650 when I built mine, so you *can* level in a basil / porp+. (p.s. LOWER THE COST OF THE PORP+ - its currently almost harder to make (certainly more expensive) than a tec 20 ship! >.< Different rant, sorry).

4) PvP - defender. I agree with Voom here, 100%. Its insane when you can't defend a team mate - I've lost count of the times I couldn't protect a team mate (other than healing.. like great, I'm a merchant / EE!) when they were being attacked. Like the pvb solution, I see a temporary hostility modifier being emplaced that widens that persons level range the more damage they give out. The AI have it, players should have it!



Er, that's my solutions. I think they work, although please tear them apart.

Some very interesting and true ideas Comet, but you are forgetting the most common factor: Freedom of Choice.

If you join a team likely to go to war or be attacked by another team, then you will either suffer the consequences or you can leave the team and go back to your nuetral statsus and regain your previous PvP brackets.

This will lead to more teams being able to hit back at larger teams. Just think about your war Comet, if your whole team were able to help in taking down Merc gals, I'm sure you would have inflicted much more damage to them, even if losing your own gals in the process.

I realize the idea of having your low level team members crushed in a war is none too appealing, but if they cannot handle the war and are at risk of losing the little they have, they could always leave the team temporarily, or just tough it out and play safe by always sticking by you or other high level members who are much more PvP oriented.

As it stands, PvP and PvB are both broken horribly, but with everybody on equal footing, retaliation against the aggressors (who would likely blow your bases, even with the PvP limits) can be much, much more effective, and even then poor teams could have a chance at killing some uber team bases if they got everything they own wiped out.

This game is supposed to be about combat, but what kind of game is it when you sometimes must stand by and watch your teammate get killed because you cant help them due to a technicality? Not a very fun game at all.

Escalating hostility solves this, and also allows for a more flexible, on the case by case solution, less open to abuse than the hard-set rules at the moment that encourage exploits.


There, I said exploit. That'll make everyone happy!

Its not actually a combat game in that sense, that would suggest open pvp which is actually supposed to be a trading and PvE game, PvP is just a side effect.

People seem to be forgetting how it used to be where any low level could join your team cause agro deliberatly then disappear, leaving your team to face the consequences. There is a reason why that doesnt happen anymore.

Mean (or even average) level of the team would be acceptable actually but highest level would broken.

The part that is broken however is the splitting of PvP level from your own level and also if you do the math on that you'd never be able to attack someone a lower level as someone suggested because its very unlikely that everyone in your team would be a similar level.

A lot of the old systems problem however has been fixed due to people marking being removed.

All of this would be solved anyway if they implement my mastery ideas because the bases would be on everyones main char anyway, although i'm warming to the new slave skills.

Also introducing factions, and home galaxies would create some PvP aspect and THEN you could have something where PvP level is based around that.

At the moment all I can say is This way no greif, New/Old way Grief.

And to GJ I do have low level SM alts thats true, but thats because I have no more skills I need on those alts, if/when I find skills I want/need then I level them just as I do with my main, and this in no way is something you cant do yourself, thats what they call tactics my friend.

~ferret

No its called exploiting a broken system. Your a lvl 700 or so, the bases on your alts should atleast be the same lvl.


Alot of the reasons listed against the "team lvl" protect system is that low lvls will be slaugtered. Well guess what? People like Rorix has a lvl 224 alt (Rathma) in a Reaper. He can slaughers ALL my low lvl team mates and I can't do JACK about it! Low lv slaughtering already happens!!!! At least with Team Lvl protect I would be able to pod the living daylights out of Rathma if he tries something like that.

People will kill low lvl people's bases you say??? (because they become artificially high lvl) WRONG I say: I can use my lvl 1400 Drone master with station Tweaking 14 to place an annihilator base next to my team Newbs Bases.... All I can do atm is watch as they are killed by Rathma

I'm a level 630 actually and a seperate alt counts as a seperate person, really. I actually just use the low level alts for base slots and guess what just because one person has a reaver at level 224 (I also have one at about that level) doesnt mean it should be open pvp your in the highest team in the game and you cant do ANYTHING cmon who are you trying to kid here?

All those people need to do is level a bit harder for a start at that level its not that hard theres seraph,parsleys,basils and i'm sure you can donate equipment to help them along.

I'm not explioting anything my CA doesnt need anymore levels I'm maxed in everything I need therfore I cease to level him.

However my merchant I can level a whole lot more, and will probably end up in the 300 at which I'll run out of skills I need so I'll stop leveling him too. My Main is 630 and I dont level much because I've got 400 spare skill points now and nothing I need at this moment in time although I could go for some bar skills when I get round to making some bars.

The fact that mumble has a level minimum and been made insanly hard had scuppered you not my low level alts and as I've said many times you can create a player about 150 that can kill andamans I play a non pvp game why should I be dragged into PvPing just because a high level team has been told they need to pvp for emp runs?

Hence the opening of this long dead and forgotten post

~ferret

Its actually a very current issue.

And the fact that this post is the "dusty past" and yet the situation is the same, shows you something:


Its still broken.

The current system is people fight with others around their level, whats so broken about that?

~ferret

Try actually reading my post next time, it might clue you up a bit.


Currently, PvB is BROKEN as healers can't be touched and so on.


Do you want a practical demonstration, or are you willing to accept the theory?