This is true as long as you are measuring change in stats multiplicatively (e.g. 12% more DPS). For DPS that is the most informative way to measure change. For things like Range and Speed, it is more debatable.

Well, in the original context it was referring to damage and elec-tempering, in which case there definitely isn't any double-dipping. Whether a class skill gives some stat is largely irrelevant to augmenter choices, because as far as damage or elec tempering augs are concerned there is no difference. Berserkers don't get better use out of damage augs compared to elec tempering augs just because they get damage from class skills and not elec tempering. There is no such relation.

However, in the case of multifiring the opposite of double-dipping applies - Even though the initial DPS of a berserker is the same as the final DPS of sniper, they nonetheless scale different with augs. This is because multifiring doesn't have the usual multiplicative scaling between skills and augs, thus meaning that it's an inferior choice for berserkers. Because bonuses on the same level don't stack multiplicatively with themselves it's best to combine all kinds of stats rather than focus on a specific one. E.g, +100% RoF and +100% damage give a 400% overall damage(you already deal 100% damage before bonuses). However, getting +200% RoF or +200% damage give only a measly 300% overall damage. If you subtract the base values you get that combining 2 stats gives 50% more power overall than having double of either. The more stats you add, the stronger it gets. Well, as far as berserker is concerned their multifiring is an augmenter bonus and thus you shouldn't get more of it, because it doesn't stack well. Snipers have no such limitation on damage scaling, making them flat out overpowered in the MF2 meta - hence why this meta is being removed. However, an alternative way to balance this meta would be simply making multifiring a more expensive stat and making it scale multiplicatively between skills and augs, just like most stats do.

Wait noooooooo

How much longer will Art of Engineering be shit?!?

This.

No one is saying leave Arts alone, Hober, there are Art augs that are legitimately useless. But a couple of them are supremely useful and fill a gap that a class otherwise can't address (that was the original point of them, that is why Art of Engi is basically useless, because Engis were already badass, meanwhile AoD paved the way for regen zerker setups because until then you had to have either shit DPS or carry an Engi Dread with you everywhere). But there is no reason that the useless ones shouldn't be altered to be useful.

AoE, AoC, and AoSS are all severely outdated for modern play (and maybe someothers but those are the only ones I personally have dealt with recently). You asked for feedback so don't throw in the towel. Take our feed back that a lot of these augs don't need changes (AoD, AoS, AoH, etc...), but a lot of them desperately need those changes (AoE, AoC, AoSS, and maybe others). No one is raging because you want to change Art Augs, people are raging because you want to *arbitrarily change SOME of the Art augs, that are already well balanced and a staple in virtually all common setups for a class.*

So basically for half of these augs you're doing great work and introducing much needed change, and for the other half you're, basically telling people, "fuck you, go rebuild your setup for no reason." So again, take the feedback you asked for; Some of these augs are fine as-is, and some of them legitimately need change.

-- Tech 22 Class augs. There are noobs all up and down the game. There is no reason to limit Tech 22 to only good augs on the level of Combined Aspect Lion when people are at the Superior Combination levels.

-- Art of Engineering. It is common. Most of the Mausoleum bosses drop the AoE bp, when only specific bosses drop the other aug bps. It is also a combination of an Engineer Mastery and an Everlasting Mastery. While it is expressly better than Engineer Mastery, if you are using an Engineer Mastery, most likely you're being a mobile battery, meaning support drones take a backburner. Everlasting Ops is wasted on drones that don't do damage, and this aug doesn't have any Offensive or General Ops to want or need Everlasting.

The Ultimate Art of Engineering is a vastly different aug. Instead of being a better Engineer Mastery, the UAoE is more like a General Mastery type aug. It has Shields, Resists, and General Ops, combined with Hull and Elect. This aug can effectively replace a General Mastery/Heph Gen for a 2UAoE/AresOff style setup.

The Ultimate version should be a direct upgrade over the normal version, not a different aug. People don't use the normal aug in typical Engineering setups, and the Everlasting Ops is wasted in those niche battery setups because they're there to tractor and elect, not deploy offensive drones.

-- Art of Commanding. Again, the AoC and the UAoC are two different augs when the latter should be a direct upgrade over the former. The AoC is fine for stats, though the radar bonus is weird. There are few times when an enemy is attacking you and you can't see them through their massive firing bloom, to warrant bonus radar power.

The UAoC is awesome. The AoC is good, but underwhelming when compared to the other aug. Either the UAoC needs to be a direct upgrade and share the same stats, or the AoC needs to be redesigned as a baby UAoC.

-- Art of Sharpshooting. Honestly, I feel that AoSS is fine, but shares the same issues as AoC/UAoC. It has a Shield and RoF bonus, not shared on the UAoSS. The UAoSS is also basically a super Sniper Mastery that replaces its Tracking bonus for a Radar bonus. UAoSS is a little underwhelming and while the DPE factor of both augs is good, there are better augs for the job.

UAoE is fine. Source: i soapy l actually use them.

I think the most unique thing about augmenters is the amount of choices you have when you aug a ship and there is never a "best" augmenter setup for any ship.

The problem with these stats now they are no longer unique - they just look like worse versions of art of augs. Take for example the shield monkey mastery. I put a shield monkey mastery aug on my HM because it gave huge shields, hull, tracking, range, and -hostility. I don't want these stats changed because there isn't another option for these stats on any other aug. Now it just looks like it isn't even an option anymore.

Please consider this if you change aug stats - I don't think augs should belong in a "tier" type of setup where more expensive ones just give more of the same stats as the cheaper one, but instead try to give each aug a reason to be used over another and let the player decide what is best for them.

Since you guys gave Hober a burnout, I'm going to pick up where he left off.

I've spent my evening going over the Art and Ultimate Art augs (except for the Gunner ones, we have no clue what to do with those just yet). The values are pretty set in stone at this point but of course if you guys see anything that is blatently under or overpowered let me know

Here are the stats


Edit:
Art of Gunnery: 12% Hull, 17% Range, 38% Damage, 30% Energy Recharge, 40% Hostility, 40% Weapon Hold, -15% Electric Tempering

Ultimate Art of Gunnery: 15% Hull, 20% Range, 50% Damage, 30% Energy Recharge, 40% Hostility, 40% Weapon Hold, -20% Electric Tempering

Update after screenshot: The Art of Commanding now has 30% Energy down from 40% and 10% Tractor Strength up from 0%. The Ultimate Art of Commanding now has 40% Energy down from 70% and 20% Tractor Strength up from 0%.














Edit2: adjusted the AoH and AoD augs. Old suggested stats:

I suppose my only question is; what conceivable reason is there to cut hostility on AoD? Not every Aug needs to be a CAL lookalike. 10 more shield and energy on an aug that has plenty of both is pointless. And since an AoD is usually already sitting next to 2 CALs, why on earth are you sacrificing the stats people actually use those Augs for (hostility, weapon hold, and elec temp), for stats that people easily get off of other Augs (damage, RoF, energy, shield)?

Finally, a simple question. Some of the augs need a rework due to not getting used. This is definitely not the case with AoD, and UAoD. So why are you changing all of them instead of just the ones that need work?

/me whistles....

Generally speaking augmenters that have high DPS multipliers don't have high hostility. Augs that have low damage multipliers make up for it by having hostility (which still allows the aug to generate the same amount of hate on an ai, even with lower dps output), such as the Berserker augs, tarkins aug and Ohm aug. Even without the hostility bonuses the AoD and UAoD would still be very good Berserker augmenters.

To your simple question is also a simple answer: there was room for improvement

If there is room for improvement, why is hostility, and elec going away in favor of stats people don't use that Aug for? If you're going to change it, make it LESS DPS and more hostility/weapon hold. It seems with combat classes you guys are fully incapable of understanding the role of a supportive augmenter vs a DPS augmenter.

Quit trying to turn everything into a DPS Aug.

I had another look and came to the conclusion you're right. Though elec is basically what you're getting when RoF gets converted to Damage, I have to agree with you that the AoD aug wasn't focused on DPS asmuch as utility. As such, I've lowered the RoF and Damage and increased the Hostility. I've also increased the Shield bonus back to 70% from 60% and lowered the Resistance to damage from 12% (the original 5%) to 10% on the UAoD.



I've also had another look at the Art of Healing line. Every Ult Art aug is a direct upgrade from the Art aug, but for the Healing one this wasn't the case. When I brought them inline with each other the result was a removal of the Damage and Range aspects of the (U)AoH, and giving them higher RoF, Trans Efficiency/Power and Resistances.