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Post Re: Feedback Thread for Fighter Rebalance
need more lower to mid tech fighters , that doesn't use extra slots .


Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:31 pm
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Post Re: Feedback Thread for Fighter Rebalance
I suggest making Mastodon fighter bays notably better so that they have an edge over standard t20 bays

Something like 2 extra fighter slots, and maybe an extra stat.

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Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:02 pm
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Post Re: Feedback Thread for Fighter Rebalance
230 extra space is not good enough?


Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:00 am
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Post Re: Feedback Thread for Fighter Rebalance
After reading all of the feedback, both here and on Discord, here is what I plan on doing:

1. There won't be fighter only auras that fleet commander equip to their ships, instead there will be fighters that have said auras that you can launch to strengthen all fighters present.

2. Low level fighter bays will have the same slots and % bonus values as higher level fighter bays.

As an added thing that has nothing to do with fighters: The Neutralizing and Demolishing Blast will be looked at and addressed, if need be they will be changed to non AoE pulse guns that are high DPS so that people who built them for their damage will not have wasted their time and money.

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Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:57 pm
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Post Re: Feedback Thread for Fighter Rebalance
The Test server, and first post, have been updated. These fighter changes will be pushed to live sometime around the Universe Reset.

Please share your feedback here.

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Mon Apr 22, 2019 12:38 pm
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Post Re: Feedback Thread for Fighter Rebalance
As of May 11th, after re-gearing my slaves and spending a sufficient amount of time on my FC post revamp I have the following feedback and concerns. In summary a number of the changes go directly against what Hober said was the intended objective of this revamp and need to change considerably, and also to bring the class back to being a "Fleet Commander" and not a "Missile Boat Commander."

1. Remove the unique auras from the aura fighters and put them back onto secondary fighter-only aura generators (that Hober had experimented with) which FCs can use AT THE SAME TIME as their normal auras. Also put evasion back onto Advanced Flight Controller. Here is why:

-Given how painful it is to use the unique aura fighters atm from your main ship, squinting to try and see if your qoku is still out or if you need to relaunch, the vast majority of FCs are just putting these on their slaves so they don't have the worry and have them out all the time. The most common setup is to put the qoku, dofb, and cerb on your slaves so that you constantly have all these bonuses without having to worry. This is another case of making all other setups obsolete given how necessary this is to do. No FC can afford to not have the qoku and dofb out especially.

-I use to use 5 different fighters on my slaves depending on situation: dofb, stormcloud, juju, qoku, cerb. Each brought to the table something different in terms of dps, damage type, laser immunity, varied damage types etc. This concept of using different fighter setups on your slaves is now gone. If I don't constantly have qoku and dofb out for the damage and evasion aura then your mainship fighters are going to suffer considerably. In essence all other slave fighter setups are now obsolete since they are forced into the same qoku/dofb fighters from slaves just to be competitive.

-One of the stated goals from Hober for this FC revamp was to allow certain FCs to be competitive standalone without slaves by focusing on fighters launched from mainship etc. This can't happen atm unless the FC also tries to main-ship the qoku and dofb. Not only is tracking when these things are up and when you need to relaunch nearly impossible from your mainship, it takes away dps fighters from your mainship and defeats this whole stated purpose.

-Another stated purpose of the revamp was to add more item progression into FC. The aura fighters are contrary to that. Once you got a qoku and dofb (and cerb) gen on each of your slaves you effectively have an end-game fighter setup for your slaves quite easily. It would be nice if this setup wasn't so forced and there were more interesting high-end, energy intensive/higher dps t20 fighters we could aim for or use in certain situations with our FC slaves like it was prior.

SUMMARY: Put the MUST-have auras from the unique fighters back on to secondary aura gens which affects fighters-only. Allow them to be used in conjunction with normal FC auras. The effect on dps should be the same. Please move evasion back into flight controller, this is such a powerful ability it does seem odd any class can get it now, but its also a necessity for FCs. You can't live without it and you shouldn't be forced to waste a whole slave to keep dofb out just because you want your mainship fighters to have evasion which is critical. Alternatively you could add evasion into a secondary aura gen which then allows FCs without Adv. Flight Control to have it, but at the trade-off of not using another cool secondary fighter aura.

***

2. Currently FCs could be renamed MBCs, missile boat commanders. Since the revamp many FCs are reporting 50 to 75% of their damage coming from missiles. This seems one of the worst changes in my opinion. Again its another case of making one option so overwhelming good, and other so bad, that if you want to be competitive you really have no choice. Missiles should be an option, but they shouldn't be forced if you want a chance at high dps. This can be fixed by making other FC-centric options more attractive like direct damage slaves and slave-launched fighters.

-The long-standing issue of FC direct damage slaves not being that powerful means that you can get way more dps per energy (for very cheaply btw) simply by using missiles than trying to build a better weapon/aug/gear setup. This should change, FCs arent gunners.

-The issue I stated in item #1, the forced usage of qoku/dofb/cerb means you are pretty much forced to give up on slave-fighters having any decent damage themselves from slaves, and hence again are forced into missiles. Having tons of choices that suck aren't really choices if you are forced into only one or two that actually work.

-Lastly this again goes against the whole "make FCs have more item progression" concept. Once you have the good t20 missile launcher which aren't hard to get you pretty much have the end-game FC slave setup. In fact its so absurdly cheap to get decent dps from missiles I'm wondering how this is any different than the "FCs take zero effort meme," which apparently this whole revamp was based on, because it seems worse now in my opinion.

SUMMARY: Dont nerf missiles, make other FC options more attractive. Either give a boost to the FC direct damage combat slaves somehow, either through the skill, or some unique FC controlbots etc, or fix item #1 above and then allow us to use higher energy usage/higher dps t20 fighters on our slaves. I personally resent having to manage missiles now as an FC. If I wanted to be a gunner I would've just played a gunner. An end-game FC that has pumped billions into their slave setup should be able to get better sustained dps through either their direct damage setup and/or high end progression slave fighters, than simply sticking a missile launcher on their slaves. Right now this isnt the case though and runs contrary to the class and the stated intention of what Hober said this revamp was for.

***

3. Please actually listen to FCs next time before you do whole scale change based purely on anecdotal evidence of a meme that "FCs take no effort." Shitty FCs take no effort. Yet not all FCs before could solo low-end KD dungeons, or solo Kidd back when was hard, or solo the Avekseka minibosses. Some could though partially and some could fully. That tells me item progression was alive and well with FCs for those that really focused and dumped time and creds into their setups, they were rewarded for that which is how it should be. If your concern was a large chunk of FCs who could solo high level peri-dgs too easily and too cheaply, then address those, don't do a revamp which actually goes against one of your stated goals of item progression and then turns us all into missile boat commanders.

Lastly, there seems a fundamental misunderstanding on part of the devs of why people play FC. It's not just because people want an OMFG OP class to play. It's because at least as far as I can tell, FC is one of the only classes you can actually play like a normal MMO, meaning you can just play one character solo and do tons of content. Most every other class you are forced to MC and sub multiple accounts. Please keep this in mind in future changes. Don't take this away from FC, instead make other classes more fun and practical to play solo like you would any other MMO.

-DLN


Sat May 11, 2019 9:57 am
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Post Re: Feedback Thread for Fighter Rebalance
I read what you wrote 3 times. I thought about what I was going to say, walked away for a few hours, reread what you said, and thought about it some more.

I think you should review how you have set up your Fleet Commander, and think about whether or not the choices you have made so far are the most optimal choices available to you. I cannot tell you how to play the game, and I do not know how you currently chose to play the game, but if missiles are CURRENTLY representing 50-75% of your damage potential then you are woefully underusing the tools available to you. I don't know who "Many FC's are". Get those individual FCs to come into this thread and report what their numbers are so that we can get a broader scope of feedback please.

To answer you directly: These changes were done with deep involvement from Fleet Commanders, from a variety of different levels and investment. It was decided to move things like Evasion and Damage to Aura's so that a Fleet Commander represented a significant power increase to any and all Fighters present in a squad.

The same way that Fleet Commanders can use Missiles, Gunners can use Fighters. These tools are not meant to be "for" a specific class over any other class, you are meant to get bonuses for using said tools on specific classes.

The same way that a Gunner can amplify the missile damage that their squad does to targets affected by Destruction; a Fleet Commander can amplify the squads Fighters.

Also: Aura fighters launched by FC are more powerful than Aura fighters launched by other classes.

Quote:
An end-game FC that has pumped billions into their slave setup should be able to get better sustained dps through either their direct damage setup and/or high end progression slave fighters, than simply sticking a missile launcher on their slaves. Right now this isnt the case though and runs contrary to the class and the stated intention of what Hober said this revamp was for.


What did you spend billions on? Players can spend billions on a multitude of things, but two people spending billions of credits on their Fleet Commanders are going to have wildly different power levels depending on what they spend those billions of credits on.

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Sat May 11, 2019 2:36 pm
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Post Re: Feedback Thread for Fighter Rebalance
To clarify, since from your post I dont think you got my main concern: DPS or overall damage isnt the issue and Im not concerned about the overall power of FCs now. In fact whether intended or not you made the so called most OP class even more OP than ever with this change.

I dont ask for those other FCs to come forward who are getting ridiculous off the charts DPS right now since the change, more so than ever before. Congrats on them for figuring it out, Im not going to out them. As far as they are concerned a major buff to FCs was your goal, who am I to argue?

My main concern is you made the class un-fun, turned them into missile boat commanders, and forced everyone into the same cookie cutter build in the process. All my points are still valid and no one has debunked them. If you want to use the aura fighters you have ONE and ONLY ONE real choice, you must put them on slaves and thus take away all other fighter slave choices. If you dont want to miss out on a shit ton of SUSTAINABLE DPS that isnt on a paper thin PBF then you must use missiles otherwise you're gimped. That is the reality FCs are now in, intended or not.


Sat May 11, 2019 3:01 pm
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Post Re: Feedback Thread for Fighter Rebalance
I for one can account for hours of testing this new FC revamp. I would be one of the FCs dread mentioned if anything. You say these tools are not meant for a specific class and while I will kind of agree to that, it doesn't make sense to me to have missiles literally account for roughly +60% of my dps when FC is a class that has bonuses to fighters instead of missiles. I've posted many many times on the fc discord along with pictures and whatnot to go with this.

"The same way that Fleet Commanders can use Missiles, Gunners can use Fighters"
I'm sorry but no..this is just wrong. From testing its not that FCs can use missiles, its that (while not literally being forced) it feels forced because its the most cost efficient way to run setups atm. Why would I spend 200b+ on weapon bots that could get me maybe 300k dps (I think im being generous with that tbf) when my fighter/missile setup gets me 545k+ dps. It takes no effort for me to achieve this, just micro managing this sucks. You say gunners can use fighters, but under no circumstance will a gunner EVER use fighters. It's not useful nor efficient. Anything fighters can do for gunner can be done better by any other gunner setup even a regular heavy fighter gunner setup would be better if it didn't launch fighters, while FC's are MUCH MUCH better as a result of missiles.

I can't tell you what the fix is because I don't know how to fix it but I do believe something is wrong with this at the moment. My gameplay hasn't changed. I can still do everything I could do before, its just more annoying now. That's about it.


Sat May 11, 2019 6:06 pm
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Post Re: Feedback Thread for Fighter Rebalance
im not gonna read this entire thread, just here to say that not giving fc bots fighter bonuses is fucking stupid.

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Sun May 12, 2019 9:38 am
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Post Re: Feedback Thread for Fighter Rebalance
dreadlordnaf wrote:
Remove the unique auras from the aura fighters

This is a feature that existed before fighter generators were introduced. It resulted in dynamic multi-fighter play, and made FC fun and interesting. I do not support losing this again.

dreadlordnaf wrote:
put them back onto secondary fighter-only aura generators (that Hober had experimented with) which FCs can use AT THE SAME TIME as their normal auras

Two auras at once sounds really stupid and difficult to balance. No.

Quote:
Also put evasion back onto Advanced Flight Controller.

It's not difficult to simply launch 1 DOFB from a bot. I don't know if you've noticed or not, but this combined with 1 Cerberus makes fighters hard as hell to kill.

Quote:
Given how painful it is to use the unique aura fighters atm from your main ship, squinting to try and see if your qoku is still out or if you need to relaunch

IS MY FIGHTER OUT?
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HELP ME I CANT TELL IF MY FIGHTER IS OUT
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Quote:
the vast majority of FCs are just putting these on their slaves so they don't have the worry and have them out all the time.

Yeah, and when the Olympus fighters get adjusted, it'll probably be better to launch one aura fighter from your own ship, and others from your bots. A bit of a dynamic gameplay, isn't it? Giving each of your ships a specific purpose?

Quote:
This is another case of making all other setups obsolete given how necessary this is to do.

If you think that the way you described is the only good way to utilize all your fighter slots, then that's a very narrow minded view, as I've thought of many ways to utilize slots in certain situations, because...

Quote:
No FC can afford to not have the qoku and dofb out especially.

The Qokuji, yes, but the DOFB no. There are situations where you need not have evasion.

Quote:
I use to use 5 different fighters on my slaves depending on situation: dofb, stormcloud, juju, qoku, cerb. Each brought to the table something different in terms of dps, damage type, laser immunity, varied damage types etc.

No you didn't. You either spammed DOFBs or you were foolish and using something else that was less powerful in almost every situation.

Quote:
This concept of using different fighter setups on your slaves is now gone.

Totally wrong, instead of simply just spamming DOFBs, I'm not carefully thinking about how I want to allocate the fighter slots of my fleet.

Quote:
One of the stated goals from Hober for this FC revamp

This wasn't an FC revamp. This was a fighter revamp.

Quote:
...was to allow certain FCs to be competitive standalone without slaves by focusing on fighters launched from mainship etc.

Hober mentioned that only having fighters would be worthwhile, and nothing about being competitive standalone

Quote:
This can't happen atm unless the FC also tries to main-ship the qoku and dofb.

When the Olympus fighters are adjusted to take less slots, they may be good substitutes in this scenario.

Quote:
Not only is tracking when these things are up and when you need to relaunch nearly impossible from your mainship, it takes away dps fighters from your mainship and defeats this whole stated purpose.

Advanced CNC, Sup. Protection, and Bubble drones should be changed. When I deploy these, they're just taking up the spot of a DPS drone on my engineer. Defeats the whole purpose of engineers having DPS drones.

Quote:
Another stated purpose of the revamp was to add more item progression into FC.

Where was this stated?

Quote:
Once you got a qoku and dofb (and cerb) gen on each of your slaves you effectively have an end-game fighter setup for your slaves quite easily.

You mean to tell me that t20 bots are limited to t20 fighters?!?! *Gasp*

Quote:
Since the revamp many FCs are reporting 50 to 75% of their damage coming from missiles

- I get about 40% of my DPS from missiles (~23% before patch)
- Missiles use a lot of elec, they've got lower DPE than fighters
Missiles are an option.

Quote:
Please actually listen to FCs next time before you do whole scale change

He has listened to the community. If you think otherwise, you haven't been paying much attention.

Quote:
based purely on anecdotal evidence of a meme that "FCs take no effort."

Not anecdotal. Real evidence. Before the patch, all you had to do was spam DOFBs/MIRVs on EFDN bots. Cheap as shit and incredibly effective. Could do it for less than 20bil.

Quote:
FC is one of the only classes you can actually play like a normal MMO, meaning you can just play one character solo and do tons of content

Yeah, shame I nor anyone can solo play my engineer, or my gunner, or my shield monkey, or my speed demon, or my sniper...

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fafi98 wrote:
my fighter/missile setup gets me 545k+ dps

Please post proof? I haven't seen someone really getting that high.

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Sun May 12, 2019 3:02 pm
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Post Re: Feedback Thread for Fighter Rebalance
JV you may think you're helping but your not. Your answers are simplistic and don't show much beyond an elementary analysis. I know you had a part in the revamp, and I'm thankful for that since it probably would've been worse without you, but your belief in false statements of facts takes away from your arguments.

-The picture you show to indicate if your fighter is out is a visual strawman. The gens are bugged, some generate up to 5, others 6, also most others keep generating when the ones you launched are out, very hard to tell if you have just 1 out. Additionally there is no easy way to tell if the fighter is out, or if it just got destroyed, those fighter bar numbers don't show that. The fact that you're defending forcing every FC to be completely miserably staring at their screen trying to pick out a qoku and dofb from the bazillion fighters on screen is disappointing. Only other option is cookie cutter build putting them all on slaves.

-Two auras out at once is exactly what we have now, just on aura fighters. How is it more difficult to balance? Two aura devices would be easier to balance since you dont need to balance their dps like a fighter nor do you need to balance around the fact that they aren't always out...

-The fact that you've deemed yourself psychic and state that I never used 5 fighters shows your own limited knowledge of FC and the sad blinding ego has on self-awareness,,, I expected more from you. I ran with 3 continuous fighters for most of the last few years, dofb, juju and stormcloud, until they did the aggro revamp which screwed up jujus. By having all 3 aboard i could solo avekseka minibosses, many of which are immune or highly resist to laser. The Masts would use the highest dps fighter against the laser resist targets and auto-launch jujus or stormclouds on their own. I used qokus in a couple boss fights for their laser resist, and occasionally put cerbs on my masts when i was leaving them to AFK so that the ships didn't have to wait 3 mins to relaunch a non-laser fighter if they encountered a laser-immune in pacja. Don't become so emotionally invested in this that you can't understand simple FC tactics like this or assume that you are psychic and know for 100% certainty how other players played.

I dont really care to answer the rest because it's of the same flawed logic as the ones I just debunked above. And I'm tired of this. Many of my complaints over the years were really aimed at balancing FC's and in many cases lowering their dps to make them more themed-play and more fun to play, but I see no one gives a shit about this. Every revamp gets more micromanagement and less fun and less themed-class gameplay.

You and Hober have now created the most overpowered and non-fun FC class to ever exist with this iteration and are getting defensive when people point this out. No one else is saying shit cause they are just taking the OP class you made and staying silent, they don't want the nerf police on them.

The fact that I'm pointing out how overpowered and non-fun my own class is, and you guys are fighting it shows your own narrow thinking. Well fuck it then, I'll just take the 300 to 500k dps Missile Boat Commander you guys have created and stop all attempts to actually bring real balance and fun to this class. Tough shit for all the other classes I guess.

If you want certainty here is my 100% prediction: You guys will never come close to balancing fighters, missiles, or FCs with this iteration just like you never did with the last iteration and in a few years instead of trying to fix it, you'll just radically re-design the whole thing once again and force a lot churn which fixes nothing.


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Post Re: Feedback Thread for Fighter Rebalance
dreadlordnaf wrote:
JV you may think you're helping but your not. Your answers are simplistic and don't show much beyond an elementary analysis. I know you had a part in the revamp, and I'm thankful for that since it probably would've been worse without you, but your belief in false statements of facts takes away from your arguments.
That last sentence doesn't even make sense, and seems like it's just an attack on me. Could you restate that in a way that such a simple mind as my own could comprehend?

-The picture you show to indicate if your fighter is out is a visual strawman. The gens are bugged, some generate up to 5, others 6, also most others keep generating when the ones you launched are out, very hard to tell if you have just 1 out. Additionally there is no easy way to tell if the fighter is out, or if it just got destroyed, those fighter bar numbers don't show that. The fact that you're defending forcing every FC to be completely miserably staring at their screen trying to pick out a qoku and dofb from the bazillion fighters on screen is disappointing. Only other option is cookie cutter build putting them all on slaves.
Generators are eventually going to go away, and be replaced with fighters that enter a destroyed state. These quick producing generators are simply temporary. In the future, you will know when it's destroyed, and you'll see clearly how many are out. This is one of the reasons I told Hober to get the destroyed state in sooner than later, because it sorts out these quantity issues that arise with generators. Fighter prefabs aren't ship locked anymore, by the way. You can toss/transfer extra fighters so that you have the right amount that you want.
-Two auras out at once is exactly what we have now, just on aura fighters. How is it more difficult to balance? Two aura devices would be easier to balance since you dont need to balance their dps like a fighter nor do you need to balance around the fact that they aren't always out...

-The fact that you've deemed yourself psychic and state that I never used 5 fighters shows your own limited knowledge of FC and the sad blinding ego has on self-awareness,,, I expected more from you.
Dude. Stop being so unironically full of yourself, and no need to get overly hostile either,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,.

DOFBs were broken before, and they did the most DPS in almost every situation except for a few particular few circumstances.



I ran with 3 continuous fighters for most of the last few years, dofb, juju and stormcloud, until they did the aggro revamp which screwed up jujus. By having all 3 aboard i could solo avekseka minibosses, many of which are immune or highly resist to laser.
Dude, is soloing subspace minis really an accomplishment to you? I've been doing that since subspace came out. I also solo a couple actual bosses too (No, not just tractoring)

The Masts would use the highest dps fighter against the laser resist targets and auto-launch jujus or stormclouds on their own. Yes, bots pick the fighter that it thinks does the most DPS. But your bots don't calculate everything. They did not know that DOFBs give +vulnerability to targets. Bots did not take this into account, nor have they ever. I used qokus in a couple boss fights for their laser resist, and occasionally put cerbs on my masts when i was leaving them to AFK so that the ships didn't have to wait 3 mins to relaunch a non-laser fighter if they encountered a laser-immune in pacja. Don't become so emotionally invested in this that you can't understand simple FC tactics like this or assume that you are psychic and know for 100% certainty how other players played.
I didn't assume how you played. You're putting words in my mouth. I stated "You either spammed DOFBs or you were foolish and using something else that was less powerful in almost every situation."

This is still true. So you're saying you didn't just spam DOFBs most of the time, in which case you're a fool. Because again, except in a few rare situations, DOFBs were best, but your bots may not have factored in the +vulnerability to target that they gave.


I dont really care to answer the rest because it's of the same flawed logic as the ones I just debunked above. And I'm tired of this. Many of my complaints over the years were really aimed at balancing FC's and in many cases lowering their dps to make them more themed-play and more fun to play, but I see no one gives a shit about this. Every revamp gets more micromanagement and less fun and less themed-class gameplay.
The destroyed fighter system should significantly help micromanagement. The fighter gens right now are a band-aid for it, as the actual code support isn't there for destroyed fighters. Fighters were a lot more fun in 2011 when they rarely died making it was easier to keep track of which ones were out because you always had just the amount you wanted on board. Again, destroyed fighters will help this, as you'll be more easily able to keep track of what fighters you have out, and you can repair destroyed ones.

You and Hober have now created the most overpowered and non-fun FC class to ever exist with this iteration and are getting defensive when people point this out. No one else is saying shit cause they are just taking the OP class you made and staying silent, they don't want the nerf police on them.

The fact that I'm pointing out how overpowered and non-fun my own class is, and you guys are fighting it shows your own narrow thinking. Well fuck it then, I'll just take the 300 to 500k dps Missile Boat Commander you guys have created and stop all attempts to actually bring real balance and fun to this class. Tough shit for all the other classes I guess.
There's a few broken things that aren't meant to be broken. You probably don't know what they are, or maybe you've figured it out. However I do know what they are, and I know they're going to be fixed. And when they are fixed, this "OP class" meme you've got here is going to go away.

If you want certainty here is my 100% prediction: You guys will never come close to balancing fighters, missiles, or FCs with this iteration just like you never did with the last iteration and in a few years instead of trying to fix it, you'll just radically re-design the whole thing once again and force a lot churn which fixes nothing.


I've been a main FC since 2009. I am a fool, but I've got a few more years spent being a fool than you, by the looks of it.

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Last edited by cej1120con on Mon May 13, 2019 6:40 am, edited 3 times in total.

Sun May 12, 2019 8:53 pm
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Post Re: Feedback Thread for Fighter Rebalance
I honestly didn't know dofb gave +vuln lmao

Jv I tagged you on discord for the screenshot. I know whats making missiles op and whats making fighters suck, these will be fixed and balance each other out to some extent so I may lose a little bit of that dps but based off my calculations I wont lose much and im not even maxing.

im waiting on the change to oly fighter slots cause those are pretty neat however at the moment they only serve a purpose in group runs as for soloing you hinder yourself a bit.

Cheers


Sun May 12, 2019 9:46 pm
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